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  1. #31
    zsas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Many years ago I attended a lecture by a photographer who claimed that a photograph could only be rated as a good photograph by how much people were prepared to pay for it. I could not understand that viewpoint, any thoughts?
    Who said this? Was s/he dead serious or merely talking about the gallery system? If it was a public lecture do tell who it was. I think the above unattributed quote is so vague and sniped from a larger point that it is pointless for us to debate a comment, possibly snide and/or satirical. I think you need more clarity in your post because it just causes vague'isms to be expressed then further debated. I will have no part.
    Andy

  2. #32
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Who said this? Was s/he dead serious or merely talking about the gallery system? If it was a public lecture do tell who it was. I think the above unattributed quote is so vague and sniped from a larger point that it is pointless for us to debate a comment, possibly snide and/or satirical. I think you need more clarity in your post because it just causes vague'isms to be expressed then further debated. I will have no part.
    Zsas/Andy, I am not trying to be vague here, but this was about 15 years ago and I really can't remember who said it. It was nothing to do with a gallery system and it was someone from the RPS. I apoligise if you think my original post is snide and/or satirical, as this was not my intent. However, I thought such a comment worthy of debate.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  3. #33
    zsas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    ....I thought such a comment worthy of debate.
    I believe, something along these lines is worthy debate when properly framed and not entirely vague. In my opinion, you have done the equivalent of "forwarding an urban legend email" to your friends and family and merely said, “I don’t agree with this”; then hit send and watch them bicker it out....

    The problem lies in the attribution, who said this? Why? These are often the problem with urban legends and half truths and vague comments on internet forums. Was this person’s comment as a snide commentary on the gallery system or did this esteemed lecturer really believe this? If we read the minutes of the lecture then I would be able to comment better. Therefore, I wont have any part debating the merits of the comment that I believe is sniped from the lectures larger point. I doubt he got on the stage said this one line and sat back down…

    I think it is irresponsible to post for debate with out a clearly defined ‘ethical/philosophic’ question, not some “someone said something vague related to art and photography”; otherwise we all get riled up, unless that was your motive. I don’t think your original post was snide/satirical; but I believe it was written in such a vague manner and then ‘thrown to the wolves…”
    Andy

  4. #34
    CGW
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    What do you tell somebody who's been a painter for twenty years, but who doesn't have the ambition to sell his/her work? Their work isn't art because there is no price tag? Give me a break.

    Find a new hobby? If their energy, budget, and wall space hold out and they enjoy it, who cares? Maybe no one wants to buy it? Tell me you don't know someone like this?

  5. #35
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    What do you tell somebody who's been a painter for twenty years, but who doesn't have the ambition to sell his/her work? Their work isn't art because there is no price tag? Give me a break.

    Find a new hobby? If their energy, budget, and wall space hold out and they enjoy it, who cares? Maybe no one wants to buy it? Tell me you don't know someone like this?
    No!

    Art that's focused on commerce has no soul, and is advertising more than anything.

    I find your view incredibly sad and insulting to the whole arts community. There is more to life and the arts than a f-ing price tag.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    How can bad art change to good art? Their artistic standard is surely the same as when they were painted, only their monetary value has changed.
    he killedhimself in the late 1800s.
    the world of painting was going through a type of upheaval.
    there were using different paints than before, and from the mid to late 1870s
    there were others like vangogh who were painting quite differently than "the etablishment"
    pointalism, impressionism, fauvism, expressionism ( german ), and a whole group of other styles
    emerged and the art establishment and gallery owners and people commissioning artwork didn't really know what to think
    when they saw his work.
    after his death in around 1900 to maybe 1910 there were shows mounted in paris, and amsterdam and other places
    where his work hung with other modern painters, and his work at that point was seen in a different light.
    it took 10-15 years after his death for the world to accept what he did and accept it as "GOOD".
    when he was painting, from what i remember, he traded his brother a few paintings for $$ and his brother reluctantly paid him.

    i wouldn't say he wasn't producing art, but "the establishment" didn't accept it as " good art "

    good or bad they are just opinions. you can find the thread from a few months ago here on apug where cindy sherman's photograph
    was the subject. some people like her work and believe she is producing, or produced "good" art, others were vocal and thought the opposite.
    in the end, it is just commerce ... the right people see it, say " its good" and people exchange money for art, and it becomes an investment.

  7. #37
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    The concepts of "good" and "bad" art are a bit troubling.
    No more troubling than the concepts of "non-commercial" and "commercial" or the concepts or of "love" and "prostitution".

    The only difference is the motivation, not the product.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  8. #38
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    Some people know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
    A worthwhile truism.

    It is great when people buy my work, but I would continue making work if no one bought it. Perhaps a little slower since I would have less money to sink into equipment and material. The benefit I have gained, and the enjoyment and benefit others have received from my prints makes them of high value to me.

    I do not consider myself a hobbiest -- the term seems to be insufficient in describing what I do and the why I do it. But I understand if someone would consider it to be my hobby...they would be wrong, but I understand why they might think so.

    Vaughn

    PS -- right on, Thomas B.!
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  9. #39

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    Thank Zeus. Just when I thought that poor innocent APUG had just given birth to the stinkiest, trolliest thread ever, a ray of redemption shineth. From this union of scum and villainy has sprung a new word, a word of certainly greater value to humanity than 'refudiate'. Please join me in welcoming 'vaguism' to our lexicon. (zsas, I hope you are OK with my slight massaging of the spelling.) I fully expect to hear Newt throwing this at Romney like a bolt of lightning during the next debate. Great thinking, zsas. Now if I can just find a way to get those damn Caddy fins out of my sight...

    J


    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Who said this? Was s/he dead serious or merely talking about the gallery system? If it was a public lecture do tell who it was. I think the above unattributed quote is so vague and sniped from a larger point that it is pointless for us to debate a comment, possibly snide and/or satirical. I think you need more clarity in your post because it just causes vague'isms to be expressed then further debated. I will have no part.

  10. #40
    Molli's Avatar
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    I'm 100% with Thomas on this one. Art is art in and of itself and doesn't require anyone else's approval or endorsement whether that's given with a cheque book or the nod of a head.

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