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  1. #61
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Just so much wrong here.

    The enviable crew I know who do well in a range of commercial photography is anything but "cookie cutter." They deliver consistently what their clients want, not a canned product. That it's just "manufacturing" is an implausible truism. The people you're describing appear a bit light on creativity.

    Maybe commercial photography and sausage-making are similar in your world but not in mine.
    So are you saying cooking isn't/can't be artistic? That high end chefs can't be creatives/artisans/craftspersons like photographers are? That their kitchens are just little factory's turning out the nightly special?
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  2. #62
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    So are you saying cooking isn't/can't be artistic? That high end chefs can't be creatives/artisans/craftspersons like photographers are? That their kitchens are just little factory's turning out the nightly special?
    Hint: think you missed the point re: sausage-making=the epitome of a uniform product, like this *^)

    http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/200...ls-photos.html

  3. #63
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    The photos that I get paid to do are usually quite detached from 'self-expression', yet the photos I make for myself and might consider more artful, enrich the entire process of my photography in obvious (learning/honing technique) and non-obvious (a better aesthetic mind!) ways, that may improve the quality of my paid work. Similarly, the efficiency-of-process required by commercial work, and necessary collaboration with clients/creatives probably makes me a better technical photographer and (sometimes!) a better social human being.

    That said, one is not the reason for the other, and I would still strive for self-expression without a necessarily defined/logical output, because that is who I am, and who I wish to be!

    Marc!
    Marc Morel
    President, Melbourne Silver Mine Inc.
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    http://silvermine.org.au

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Many years ago I attended a lecture by a photographer who claimed that a photograph could only be rated as a good photograph by how much people were prepared to pay for it. I could not understand that viewpoint, any thoughts?
    He could have simply meant in a capitalist system, value is measured in dollars. The more someone is willing to pay, the greater the value. And in a certain sense, he would be right.

  5. #65
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Hint: think you missed the point re: sausage-making=the epitome of a uniform product, like this *^)

    http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/200...ls-photos.html
    Hint: The the design team at Ferrari is no better/nor worse than the design team at IKEA or Apple or Mutual of Omaha. The difference is not their skill or dedication or artistic vision or scientific prowess. The difference is the market and price point they design for.

    There is only one reason to be in business; to make a profit. It is a selfish, self-indulgent, and narcissistic pursuit especially in the art industry where one builds a cult of personality around "the artist" as a marketing tool.

    I'd hazard a guess that if the "enviable crew" you speak of above are truly successful commercially; that they chase their market hard and are good at it, that they are good at sales, that they found or built reliable factory like back end processes to support their highly customized product. They may be masters of their craft, photography, too but that doesn't necessarily make what they do "art" or make their business successful.

    Being good at commerce in your market is what makes any business sucessful, the specific product is irrelevant.

    Success in a craft, or art, or science, or life, doesn't have to be measured in money. You are free to use that criteria if you please, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to jump on that treadmill.
    Last edited by markbarendt; 01-29-2012 at 09:05 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Many years ago I attended a lecture by a photographer who claimed that a photograph could only be rated as a good photograph by how much people were prepared to pay for it. I could not understand that viewpoint, any thoughts?
    I sincerely hope that the lecturer was wrong, or I have wasted more than fifty years of my life.
    Ben

  7. #67
    keithwms's Avatar
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    Let me suggest the classic and provocative little book by John Berger, Ways of Seeing. There is a BBC film version on youtube; part 1 is here.

    I can almost guarantee that the lecturer was engaging in similar provocation of the class. It's a very old subject, commodification of art. Marx's pet peeve.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  8. #68
    Jim Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Art without commerce is a hobby.
    Commerce without art is like unleavened bread. The money gained from commerce is merely a tool for something better than money itself: we can't eat gold or silver. However, we can feed our bodies with good food, and our souls with art.

  9. #69
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Hint: The the design team at Ferrari is no better/nor worse than the design team at IKEA or Apple or Mutual of Omaha. The difference is not their skill or dedication or artistic vision or scientific prowess. The difference is the market and price point they design for.

    There is only one reason to be in business; to make a profit. It is a selfish, self-indulgent, and narcissistic pursuit especially in the art industry where one builds a cult of personality around "the artist" as a marketing tool.

    I'd hazard a guess that if the "enviable crew" you speak of above are truly successful commercially; that they chase their market hard and are good at it, that they are good at sales, that they found or built reliable factory like back end processes to support their highly customized product. They may be masters of their craft, photography, too but that doesn't necessarily make what they do "art" or make their business successful.

    Being good at commerce in your market is what makes any business sucessful, the specific product is irrelevant.

    Success in a craft, or art, or science, or life, doesn't have to be measured in money. You are free to use that criteria if you please, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to jump on that treadmill.
    Whatever soothing fictions work for you.

  10. #70
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Whatever soothing fictions work for you.
    Back at ya.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

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