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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper View Post
    There are more than three of his nudes preserved but I don't remember the exact number. He destroyed a lot of them himself as stated above.
    Yes, I got that wrong. Memory fade at time of original posting. There are six (6) per Morton's book.

  2. #22
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    On the other gender, there's Thomas Eakin's swimming hole photo, which by itself is apt to be a common enough rural scene, but assumptions are quickly made because of the volume of young males photographed (who were also chaperoned). I see F Holland Day as re-interpreting the same material in a B&W pictorialist style. Male teens and crucifixion scenes are common to both of them.

    Today we have Sally Mann. I have zero problem with photographers making photos with their own kids naked. It's part of who the kids are; documenting their matter-o-fact innocense and unrehearsed little life with artful photos. Using your photos of your naked kids for self promotion or selling your kids naked photos is more than I'm comfortable with. I mean, who is gonna buy photos of her naked children? Sure, if I were an uber wealthy person bad with the camera, she'd be a well regarded pick to commission photos of my kids. As a photographer, I'd not mind learning from her, but not to copy her. I'd like to think she's famous first as a photography educator, but I suspect she's actually famous for promoting her naked kids.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper View Post
    His letters are interesting reading, and you can try some Sylvie and Bruno if you want to know what he wrote apart from the books about Alice (don't be surprised if you don't finish it, it's crap)
    The Hunting of the Snark, on the other hand, is quite good. And worth seeking out the edition with Mervyn Peake's illustrations.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two23 View Post
    This guy's behavior is setting off my alarm bells.
    Unfortunately this is the truth -- both in his own days and today. The issue never was with nude photography. Lots of people legitimately did it, and still do it, even with young children. The issue was his OTHER activities associated with young girls. I think it is called "grooming" today. And it was just as creepy then as it is now.

    But history has not shown that he ever violated the trust he had with the children or their parents... and I agree that nobody should assume ill-will without some new-found historical evidence. Assumption and conjecture isn't enough.
    Last edited by BrianShaw; 02-22-2012 at 08:50 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: added last thought.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    A popular modern armchair sport is diagnosing historical figures with modern psychiatric disorders based on their writings, photographs, reclusiveness, etc, without any first hand experience of the person. Why not add posthumous criminal conviction to the sport?
    I agree. People often say that Edgar Allan Poe was schizophrenic or psychotic or both because of what he wrote.

    He certainly was known to be a drinker, a carouser and a womanizer. By today's standards he would probably be labeled an alcoholic.
    Also, by today's standards, Poe would have been considered a pedophile. If you know the real story of Anabel Lee, you'll know what I'm talking about. Back in the day, people might have said, that Poe "liked them young" but 14 or 15 years old wasn't necessarily considered to be too young if the parents consented. (The real "Anabel Lee's" parents didn't consent.)

    Poe might have been all that and more but he wasn't "schizo."

    Poe was a writer and he wrote to make money. He wrote what sold and, in that time, nobody else was writing stories or poems of such horror and gore as Poe. Poe simply wrote what made him the most money.

    What about Stephen King? Do we call him "schizo" because he writes horror stories?
    Yes, there are people who have met King who say he often acts pretty creepy but he usually counters by saying it's all an act.

    Maybe King is a creepy guy. Does it really matter? Could it possibly be because we want to believe he's creepy?
    The same thing goes for Poe. Does it really matter? Could it possibly be because we want to believe he's crazy, too?

    In either case, both of them probably played up to the stereotype for "marketing purposes," as it were but I don't think either of them were crazy just because they wrote horror stories. They both did it to make money, plain and simple.

    In Carroll's case, maybe he got a little "too close for comfort" but I think it was more out of naivety rather than neurosis.
    I think he might have been playing up to his stereotype as a "children's writer," just as King and Poe played up to their stereotypes, but didn't realize the connotations that came of his relationship with the real Alice and/or other children.

    I would put Lewis Carrol in the class with the others: Creepy but probably not crazy.
    Randy S.

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    http://www.flickr.com/photos/randystankey/

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    A popular modern armchair sport is diagnosing historical figures with modern psychiatric disorders based on their writings, photographs, reclusiveness, etc, without any first hand experience of the person. Why not add posthumous criminal conviction to the sport?
    That is the one of the tools historians have to work with. Certainly that has to be tempered with the mind-set of the times, but new tools often provide new understanding. Calling it a "sport" is understandable sarcasm, but what else would you (not you, specifically, but the generic "you") recommend... suspending all academic historical research because of the possibility of doubt? If so... then lets just talk gear.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper View Post
    He is very clear about about his interests in his letters (booys are ugly, girls over 12 are not interesting but young girls are) but there is no recorded evidence that he ever turned thoughts into actions.
    His letters about Alice are almost extreme in their pleadings and manipulations of convincing her mother to let him see the child. They are manipulative and definitively urge others to take action that would fulfill a desire of his.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    That is the one of the tools historians have to work with. Certainly that has to be tempered with the mind-set of the times, but new tools often provide new understanding. Calling it a "sport" is understandable sarcasm, but what else would you (not you, specifically, but the generic "you") recommend... suspending all academic historical research because of the possibility of doubt? If so... then lets just talk gear.
    Speculation about so-called mental disorders that have highly dubious validity even today can hardly be considered a "new tool." Neither can speculation about criminal intent. It is conjecture that lacks the most important piece of information-the person in question, who is not present and can say nothing in their own defense. This is not to defend Carroll of anyone else from wrong-doing they might have wrong-done (if any), but to defend him and the Poes, Dickinsons, Woodmans, Maiers and many other creatives from conjectural posthumous psychiatric "diagnosis", criminal accusation.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    Speculation about so-called mental disorders that have highly dubious validity even today can hardly be considered a "new tool." Neither can speculation about criminal intent. It is conjecture that lacks the most important piece of information-the person in question, who is not present and can say nothing in their own defense. This is not to defend Carroll of anyone else from wrong-doing they might have wrong-done (if any), but to defend him and the Poes, Dickinsons, Woodmans, Maiers and many other creatives from conjectural posthumous psychiatric "diagnosis", criminal accusation.
    Forgive me for seeming defensive... but nobody in this thread so far (unless I managed to skip over a posting in my periodic reading of the thread) has accused anyone of anything except being creepy. I find it interesting that there have been two posters who have tried to "head the accusations off at the pass" by implying that acusations have been made, or about to be made. To be perfectly clear: being creepy is not a crime.

  10. #30

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    Brian-you replied to my response to someone who said "I've personally met and interacted with dozens of pedophiles. This guy's behavior is setting off my alarm bells".

    Connect the dots. He is saying he thinks LC was a pedophile.

    In other threads and in other places the people I mentioned have been diagnosed or accused of various things in similar fashion-without ever having observed the person or their behaviors.

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