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  1. #71

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    I have to check my book shelf (at home, where I am not at the moment) to give complete citations, but the two authors who come to mind are Morton Cohen and Collingwood. Both wrote books with examples, exerpts, etc. I also have a half-recollection that Mrs Hatch (Evenlyn??, Beatrice's mother) published some letters too. I thought Cohen was available via Google Books but will leave that to the inquisitive to verify.

    Another source is http://books.google.com/books?id=z1g...etters&f=false

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    Nobody ever accused him of impropriety when he was alive.
    Are you sure of that fact? I didn't hear the conversation myself but that is not my understanding. I believe that it may be true that he was never directly accused of child molestation (or anything similar) but it is apparent from available information that at least one parent became uncomfortable with the adult-child relationship that was formed.

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    This is all quite posthumous and pointless, ...
    All of history is posthumous, but obviously not pointless. Are you implying that history has no place in our lives because it is posthumous and relies on piecing together shreds of available information to reach conclusions? That, of course, is quite a rediculous statement. We live in a world where we understand only using the information available to us... and it is rarely first hand or fully authoritative. That is why humans have become so good at reasoning. We humans think, corellate information, assume where necessary, and draw conclusions. In terms of whether this kind of discussion is "nice" or not, let me assure all involved in this thread that Rev Dodgson will not be offended by this discussion, nor will his reputation be impugned in any way.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by artonpaper View Post
    No one has mentioned Jacques Sturgis.
    Start a separate thread, please. I will share opinions on him too!

    Summary: never arrested, never convicted, never happened... no matter what the other available information may suggest.

  5. #75
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    I have to check my book shelf (at home, where I am not at the moment) to give complete citations, but the two authors who come to mind are Morton Cohen and Collingwood. Both wrote books with examples, exerpts, etc. I also have a half-recollection that Mrs Hatch (Evenlyn??, Beatrice's mother) published some letters too. I thought Cohen was available via Google Books but will leave that to the inquisitive to verify.

    Another source is http://books.google.com/books?id=z1g...etters&f=false
    I reference these:

    http://harpers.org/subjects/LewisCarroll

    What you want is History Laid Bare: Remarkable Accounts of Love, Sex, and Perversity, edited by Richard Zacks and published by HarperCollins; they were originally published by Oxford University Press in The Letters of Lewis Carroll.

    What struck me when I read this book (in Uni quite some time ago) was his substantial persistence in trying to arrange for the girls to visit and pose. He put enormous effort in convincing the parents to make it happen with those girls at that specific time of their development. He rationalizes the mother's excuses for rejection and then cleverly turns the tables on her through rhetoric. They were not "Come over for tea. Bring the kids." They are incredibly detailed exhortations of having these girls in his presence fulfill an emotional need, not just a Victorian fancy for innocent nude children in artistic representation. To him it may have been an exercise in eroticism. To the children it appears they were objectified for his needs; he used them, and the parents as well. The thing that always struck me about the letters to the Liddell's was how manipulative he was of the parents. He tried to make them feel guilty. Even by the standards of Victorian prose, they are over the top.

    Sexual fetishes and even deviancy were part of the fabric of Victorian/Edwardian life, even tolerated well into the 21st Century. They crucified Oscar Wilde for his, but Carroll's fetish is clearly more than an attempt to collect porcelain pieces or experiments in photography. I don't think the more recent defenses of his behavior make the case that he did NOT have a young girl erotic fetish. They simply deflect by trying to show him in a more "normal" light. All well to paint a more nuanced picture of an important literary figure, but the letters he wrote to the Liddell parents are too strong evidence to ignore. He was complex, but he also really, really, really liked quite young girls.

    My major criticism of the attempts to normalize child nudes in Victoria culture is that it comes across as de-sexualizing the nudes. I think this nonsense. The idea that child nudes back then was to reclaim innocence is far too simple and facile. Just because we have an impression of Victorian times as prudish doesn't mean that under the bustle it was. It was just expressed differently. Carroll manipulates parents to bring him young girls for nude portraiture.

    This a good article in summary:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/29/gender.uk

  6. #76

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    AMEN.

    ... and now I wish I were a Harper's subscriber. I haven't seen those articles. They look interesting.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbaphoto View Post
    I wish you lot would get a dictionary between you - Most of the time I can work out what you mean, (reported/purported) - But in this instance I take it that Jock Sturges is being referred to - Yes, I have his book "The Last Day of Summer" here on the desk to check the spelling of his name

    So, having mentioned him, what is the point?



    Here in Australia in my opinion we have the King of the Creeps defended and lauded by a bunch of purblind arts experts - I refer, of course, to Bill Henson - I was going to scan an image from his 46th Venice Biennale 1995 catalogue, but there is no way a scan from these dark catalogue images would survive the process of scanning and loading and still be readable

    I refer to BH as here is a photographer who works with very young models, covering them in stuff and mutilating the images to form a large montage - More recently his work at the Roslyn Oxley gallery 9 was held by the police for a while, although to me these portraits verged on the innocent - BH has actually canvassed for models through a school, but I will have to re-read David Marr's "The Henson Case" 2008 for the exact reference - David Marr was a journalist who I used to respect, but no longer

    Yes, nasty pix are alive and well in Australia - This is in my personal and owned opinion

    Now to cop the flak, but I am used to it

    John
    Well, I thank jbaphoto, John, for spell checking me. Reminds me of my fuddy duddy middle school English teacher. But, ''what is the point?'' Really, you can't make that connection? The point, or points are, here's another photographer, one of many, who have photographed children in a way that some people seem to think sexualizes them. Now I don't like Henson, not because he's creepy, but because his pictures, to me, seem overly slick and self-conscious. When I look at Carroll's work, I enjoy them on many levels, including a glimpse into a rather eccentric part of his personality. I'm glad his pictures exist. Likewise Sturgis, and Sally Mann. And sometimes people get upset. So what. Worst pictures I've seen I think, were pictures of Nazi officers hanging children. This stuff, it is what it is.

    Hey John, did I spell ''fuddy duddy'' right?

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    To him it may have been an exercise in eroticism.

    Do you find his photographs of children erotic?

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    Start a separate thread, please. I will share opinions on him too!

    Summary: never arrested, never convicted, never happened... no matter what the other available information may suggest.

    And now we see you aren't just a historian, you are equally interested in smearing the living as well.
    Who needs proof when you have suspicion and "other information"?

  10. #80
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    Good Morning Artonpaper,

    I am sure fuddy duddy is right, but spell check is underlining it in red, I digress - My question regarding Jock Sturgis was as way of asking for an expansion

    I thing I have always found odd is that Sally Mann and Jock Sturgis were castigated for producing what I find to be in general engaging portraits, although SM's pictures of nose bleeds etc I am not fond of, but that is part of the mix - The person who was never castigated to my knowledge was David Hamilton, who made deliberately sexual images of young Scandinavian girls

    My prime criticism of Henson is his lack of engagement, to me the most crucial aspect of portraiture - I feel the lack of engagement goes hand in hand with his creepiness (a word use I accept in this thread) and the slickness of his presentation

    Regarding the media noise over Henson's 2008 Oxley show I forgot to mention the radio campaign from Chris Smith of Radio 2GB in Sydney which started the furore, I was reminded of this by Ross Chambers - Living the the Southern Karri Forest Belt I am too far away to see the Henson show in Sydney, but if I was in NSW I would certainly visit it



 

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