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  1. #41
    benjiboy's Avatar
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    You bet your boots it is.
    Ben

  2. #42
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Thomas, I understand your view and I think you understand mine. Perhaps we should leave it there.
    I'm ok with that Clive, because I don't think I'll ever fully understand. But I will always try to respect, hoping for the same in return.

    One more thing I'd like to add to the discussion in general is the concept of effort and presentation. One can labor over Cibachromes, Silver gelatin prints, inkjet prints, photogravures, platinum prints, cyanotypes, etc for hours, or it comes easily for those that are very skilled, but I do appreciate the fact that someone cared enough to present their work in the best possible way. To me that shows a love, respect, and care of the medium. That's worth a lot to me as well.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  3. #43
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    One more thing I'd like to add to the discussion in general is the concept of effort and presentation. One can labor over Cibachromes, Silver gelatin prints, inkjet prints, photogravures, platinum prints, cyanotypes, etc for hours, or it comes easily for those that are very skilled, but I do appreciate the fact that someone cared enough to present their work in the best possible way. To me that shows a love, respect, and care of the medium. That's worth a lot to me as well.
    +1

    I have come to realize a few things in this conversation: The original is not it. The silver gelatin is not it. The signature and mounting is not it.

    If an artist I appreciate carefully created a print. Then I appreciate it.

    I appreciate it even more if it happens to be by an analog process. Just because that is one of my personal values.

    But future generations of photographers must generate value for their work if they intend to survive. So if I were teaching students I would recommend that they see all the art they can. Make a few analog pieces of their own work to act as a benchmark. Then, exceed that work.

  4. #44
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    I think a photograph (or almost any art medium) is like a pair of glasses. You put them on and you see something. You see how the person that owned the glasses saw things. You get to see the world through his eyes.

    A lot of this thread is about how nice the glasses are, are the frames metal or plastic, is the style current, do they have unscratchable lenses.

    Perhaps were spending too much time looking at them and not enough time through them.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    I think a photograph (or almost any art medium) is like a pair of glasses. You put them on and you see something. You see how the person that owned the glasses saw things. You get to see the world through his eyes.

    A lot of this thread is about how nice the glasses are, are the frames metal or plastic, is the style current, do they have unscratchable lenses.

    Perhaps were spending too much time looking at them and not enough time through them.
    Well said.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  6. #46
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    I think a photograph (or almost any art medium) is like a pair of glasses. You put them on and you see something. You see how the person that owned the glasses saw things. You get to see the world through his eyes.

    A lot of this thread is about how nice the glasses are, are the frames metal or plastic, is the style current, do they have unscratchable lenses.

    Perhaps were spending too much time looking at them and not enough time through them.
    I honestly don't understand the metaphor of the last sentence.
    Are you saying that we spend too much time worrying about the process of photography, and not enough time with the actual content?

    Not sure how that applies to everybody else, but to me the ultimate destination is a print, (i.e. looking 'through' the eye glasses). Others may or may not agree.
    So the value of the print is, to me, that the artist cared enough about the picture to print it and present it in a way that it represents the idea, emotion, and message the artist intended. This involves size, print values, toning, etc. A highly literal interpretation of the negative might be exactly how the photographer sees things, or there could be heavy manipulation involved. Either way, to see a print in the way the artist intended it, trumps all other ways of viewing the work, and truly the way to see through the eye glasses, as you put it. The way a picture is printed heavily supports the content, in my own opinion. At least that is how I try to express myself and choose to view the work of others.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  7. #47
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    The original photograph made personally, start to finish, by the photographer is a full down-load of that photographer's mind. And down-loading one mind into another is the bedrock of the art process itself.

    Camera-workers who merely select subject matter with cameras and then have others make things to look at don't deliver the full down-load. I'm greedy, I want the maximum possible committment from the picture-maker. And if I'm patient, selective, and not a visual magpie that pecks at everything in sight, I can have this.

    If someone offered me a good quality, good condition, original Ansel Adams, say 16" X 20", characteristic of his mature style for a few grand I'd say sold! I'm interested in Ansel's mind, how he sees things, and the photographs are merely a device to make this possible. As for the photograph itself, it would be some distance down the track before I'd bother asking "what's it of"?
    Photography, the word itself, invented and defined by its author Sir John.F.W.Herschel, 14 March 1839 at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London. Quote "...Photography or the application of the Chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation,..". unquote.

  8. #48
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    The original photograph made personally, start to finish, by the photographer is a full down-load of that photographer's mind. And down-loading one mind into another is the bedrock of the art process itself.

    Camera-workers who merely select subject matter with cameras and then have others make things to look at don't deliver the full down-load. I'm greedy, I want the maximum possible committment from the picture-maker. And if I'm patient, selective, and not a visual magpie that pecks at everything in sight, I can have this.

    If someone offered me a good quality, good condition, original Ansel Adams, say 16" X 20", characteristic of his mature style for a few grand I'd say sold! I'm interested in Ansel's mind, how he sees things, and the photographs are merely a device to make this possible. As for the photograph itself, it would be some distance down the track before I'd bother asking "what's it of"?
    Maris, we are on different planets.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  9. #49
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    A print is (or certainly should be) a labor of love. For some (Clive, it seems) it is simply a vehicle to convey what was captured on the negative. Therefore, value is placed strictly on content, which better be a damn good one if the print is meant to stand on its own. For me, the print is a form of expression, something that, at the end, I can be proud of or make someone else happy with. Its value is not taken lightly because I want it to be special. Frankly, the purist, elitist attitude of "my images are so good and strong, that all I need to do is slap some paper under the enlarger and transfer the negative" is a buch of BS. Within those parameters, a book reproduction has as much value as the print, because the artist did not express himself through printing but simply transferred information from the negative. Where is the added value then? Silver in the paper? If I spend 3 hours in the darkroom perfecting a print and achieving MY vision, the value is in not merely in content but in my original interpretation of the negative and skills as a printer.

  10. #50
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    A print is (or certainly should be) a labor of love. For some (Clive, it seems) it is simply a vehicle to convey what was captured on the negative. Therefore, value is placed strictly on content, which better be a damn good one if the print is meant to stand on its own. For me, the print is a form of expression, something that, at the end, I can be proud of or make someone else happy with. Its value is not taken lightly because I want it to be special. Frankly, the purist, elitist attitude of "my images are so good and strong, that all I need to do is slap some paper under the enlarger and transfer the negative" is a buch of BS. Within those parameters, a book reproduction has as much value as the print, because the artist did not express himself through printing but simply transferred information from the negative. Where is the added value then? Silver in the paper? If I spend 3 hours in the darkroom perfecting a print and achieving MY vision, the value is in not merely in content but in my original interpretation of the negative and skills as a printer.
    Maximus, don’t take this the wrong way, as I value what you are saying. I am not saying that the image should be so good and strong, as to not warrant expert printing, as this should obviously be the next logical step. However, the time spent printing is not a reflection of image value. The time involved in making the print is of no significance to the value of the final print, if it be 10 seconds or several hours.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon



 

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