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  1. #81
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    The photographer who does not do their own printing creates value by seeing and capturing the image, which is then communicated to and remembered by the viewer. That image isn't worth a lot per view (viewers pay only what it costs to pay attention). But that small amount multiplied by a large audience is priceless.

    Prints created by the artist carry (at least some) value in their physical existence. Electronic delivery does not transmit this full value to the viewer. These prints are worth seeing in person.

    One good way to get a feel for the print value is to join a print exchange. When you get your set, I believe you will agree that you hold between a hundred and a thousand dollars worth of prints in your hands.

    A printed book reproduction of a similar collection might only feel like it is worth thirty dollars. An online gallery view of the set might only catch your attention for an hour.
    I agree that prints, like paintings, have value in their physical existence.

    The Georgia O'Keefe museum in Santa Fe, NM has a portrait of O'Keefe by Karsh. A very large print, it had its own small (for a museum) room when I was there. It covered the better part of a wall all by itself.

    Part of "the original's" value is in it's size, it was approaching life size for the subject and felt much more like like being in O'Keefe's world rather than being a voyeur looking at her world via a 16x20 or a book. I'd describe the feeling as "getting close to meeting her".

    A huge part of the photo's value is in it's composition; like in most of Karsh's work, there was nothing random about the elements included or the pose and it is a true formal portrait every bit as much as if had been done with oils.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  2. #82
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    As a rule, HCB didn't do any printing himself, it was all hired out to somebody else.
    And this is perfectly fine. He transcends this discussion, and this seeming contradiction makes it worth digging deeper into this discussion about the value of seeing prints in person.

    Henri Cartier-Bresson is "really one of the greatest photographers in the world." ... He "needs walls for his pictures, like museum walls" - Willy Fleckhaus, 1969.

  3. #83
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    And this is perfectly fine. He transcends this discussion, and this seeming contradiction makes it worth digging deeper into this discussion about the value of seeing prints in person.

    Henri Cartier-Bresson is "really one of the greatest photographers in the world." ... He "needs walls for his pictures, like museum walls" - Willy Fleckhaus, 1969.
    HCB wasn't the only famous guy to farm out printing work, Salgado and Erwitt come to mind. Seems to me that many big name photographers had assistants "help" in the darkroom. I'd even bet a nickle that Karsh and Hurell had "helpers" that printed for them.

    It also seems that it would be problematic to compare to compare HCB's prints to Karsh's. At 11x14 HCB was reaching some real limits while at 11x14 Karsh may have been making test strips.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  4. #84
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    At 11x14 HCB was reaching some real limits while at 11x14 Karsh may have been making test strips.
    What limits are you referring to?

    I have seen prints much larger of his work that still look beautiful, organic, and convincing.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #85

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    Who mentioned AA Cibachromes? He never printed Ciba nor was equipped to do so. Perhaps a lab was commissioned after his death. Where did you see them? ... Anyway, nothing in history has fostered photographic
    mediocrity quite as much as the internet. The comparison to painting is something I agree with. I'd seen quite a
    few coffee-table book reproductions of Rembrant's self-portraits and I kinda shrugged my shoulders. Standing in
    front of the actual painting in the Natl Gallery with the delicate impasto and true pigments practically floored me. Once I get around to anything other than ignoring my own website (it's a very low priority), I intend to remove all images from it. The whole concept has backfired. Every jackass with a cellphone thinks he can do that. Viewing the prints in person is a whole different level of experience. I'm getting weary of arguing with
    smart-alecs who think they can do everything the easy way and get comparable results. Not only have they
    not learned to print; I doubt any of them have ever looked at good prints. But some people think that Denney's
    is fine cuisine.

  6. #86
    cliveh's Avatar
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    As has been said before, a lot depends on the picture in question. If it is a picture like this –

    http://www.sandrophoto.com/wp-conten...i-Kim-Phuc.jpg

    Printing values are not particularly important, as compared to a picture of a wooden fence by Weston and it must be remembered that there is an infinite myriad of images between the two.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  7. #87
    Andrew Moxom's Avatar
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    Now that's funny!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ishutteratthethought View Post
    I prefer a fine fart over fine art, it is cheaper and more rewarding to me personally.
    Please check out my website www.amoxomphotography.com and APUG Portfolio .....

  8. #88
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    As has been said before, a lot depends on the picture in question. If it is a picture like this –

    http://www.sandrophoto.com/wp-conten...i-Kim-Phuc.jpg

    Printing values are not particularly important, as compared to a picture of a wooden fence by Weston and it must be remembered that there is an infinite myriad of images between the two.
    I agree!

  9. #89
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    What limits are you referring to?

    I have seen prints much larger of his work that still look beautiful, organic, and convincing.
    I'm not saying larger prints can't work, it's not an absolute limit but, I find that prints I like which are larger than 11x14, coming from 35mm 400 speed negs are very few and far between indeed.

    Typically for me the grain seems to start fighting with the details, smaller subject matter becomes a struggle. For example a head and shoulders portrait may work nicely at 16x20 but smaller subject matter such as faces in full length or group portraits start to compete seriously with the grain for my attention as a viewer.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #90
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    I'm not saying larger prints can't work, it's not an absolute limit but, I find that prints I like which are larger than 11x14, coming from 35mm 400 speed negs are very few and far between indeed.

    Typically for me the grain seems to start fighting with the details, smaller subject matter becomes a struggle. For example a head and shoulders portrait may work nicely at 16x20 but smaller subject matter such as faces in full length or group portraits start to compete seriously with the grain for my attention as a viewer.
    I think we are of a different opinion about print size and grain. I see 30x40" prints from 35mm that I think work perfectly well and the grain adds to the print. My favorite size for 35mm Delta 3200 is 16x20 and 11x14.

    The Bresson prints I saw must have been printed on 20x24, as they were at least 20" in the long dimension. It was in association with his death back in 2002, 2003, something, and I remember Ted Hartwell at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts dug out their Bresson treasures to honor his life. They might have been printed by Sid Kaplan, if I remember correctly.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

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