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  1. #41

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    "To borrow Minor White's idea I'm always photographing everything mentally"

    Yeah but what if your mind is extremely narrow? Art is jumping into the unknown not going the safe pre-thought pre-visualized way.
    Garry W. I'm still in awe of your work!

  2. #42
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    To borrow Minor White's idea I'm always photographing everything mentally. After some decades at this game I can form a pretty reliable mental image of the final picture as it would emerge from the darkroom. If it's no good I'll go and look at something else. Just snapping, just burning film, to see what things look like when photographed (thanks Gary Winogrand) is a lazy alternative to thinking the process through in the first place. And later discovering some twee frames in a pile of contact sheets is no salvation.

    Snappers like Friedlander, Winogrand, and Cartier-Bresson, who never stopped and looked at what was in front of them, never pondered it, and never knew exactly what was on the film until they winnowed the contact sheets ask what I cannot give: To put through my mind stuff they didn't bother putting through theirs.
    Maris, I fail to see how you can criticize these photographers, unless you can show images of your own that you feel are as good or better.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    BTW...How much a pound does a commie, I mean a red snapper go for these days?
    Oh please, communism was just a red herring!
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST
    My Flickr Gallery

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeknom02 View Post
    Oh please, communism was just a red herring!
    Thank you thank you thank you! I needed that! I now have a Monty Pythonish image in my head of a red herring with Lenin's face and the Hammer and Sickle on its side! Rough time at work -- how can artists be so bloody anal about running an university art department! Well, enough about politics!

    Grumpy Old Man -- hope to meet you someday. I have ex-in-laws in Oz and would like to visit them again -- and lots of places there I'd like to photograph! I have only been in NSW and a bit in the NT. Got to see Western Oz someday! And Tas!

    I hope you don't mind my Zen references. I have read way too much Zen stuff to ever be able to obtain satori! Dang brain has been contaminated! But it does not stop me from spreading my ignorance, though...LOL!

    The mind can not know the Mind -- heaven help me!

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  5. #45
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    Snappers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    They are the best, I had a fresh one pan fried on Tuesday night with chips and salad and few (too many) beers
    I like this idea and may give it a try.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  6. #46
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    It may occasion another PM exchange with someone who doesn't agree, but drat for the hundredth time the lack of the multi-quote button on APUG. Done via lots of aborted replies with quotes and Notepad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Poisson Du Jour View Post
    I do not recognise the term.
    Photographs are not snapped and they certainly are not taken.
    They are made.
    Some of mine I feel are made, some taken. If I had to make a distinction I'd say it revolved around how much departure from reality the final image shows. That's a trap laden concept because black and white, which is mostly what I do, is a departure from reality by definition. And color films all differ and none have the range of human vision and none reproduce color perfectly so that is too, albeit probably to a lesser extent.

    But some images are shot at relatively normal exposure and development and printed to "normal looking" tones that are similar to a straightforward rendering of the scene, with little to no dodging and burning. Those are probably more "taken." Others look nothing like the original scene and are probably more "made."

    Even this is not straightforward. If you have to burn down the sky quite a bit to get it to look like it looked to you by eye at the time, what is that?

    Ultimately I don't think it matters which of these terms one uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    What about it is it that you 'make' that wasn't already there?
    Not that it wasn't there, but the relative emphasis of different areas are easily changed in the darkroom, the contrast can deviate radically from what was there - a contrasty scene can be printed more flatly or, much more often probably, a scene in very flat light can be boosted in contrast. It looks less like the scene than it would otherwise, but may make a better image, assuming pictorial accuracy isn't the aim.

    Sometimes one, sometimes the other. A foolish consistency...

    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    I've always thought that, when I snap the shutter, I "take". When I'm in the darkroom, I "make". In truth, I'm not at all concerned with the terminology.
    I kind of think of it like that too, but I agree that too much emphasis on terminology serves no purpose and is a distraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    I will disagree with this only because not-thinking is as far away from the "Zen experience" as over-thinking.

    It is the decision to make or not make an image -- and the mental gymnastics one may or may not do to reach that decision -- that defines the "Zen experience". It is not the speed in which one goes about making the image, once the decision is made. In The Art of Zen Archery, it is how the arrow is released that matters, not the speed in which one draws and fires.

    Otherwise, one is just using the shotgun affect by snapping away. So my point is that even when one takes 30 minutes to set up a 8x10 camera and expose a sheet of film, that image has as much of a possibility of being in a "Zen experience" as one might have exposing 36 exposures in 10 minutes with a 35mm.

    Both have the potential of spontinatity. (sorry for the sp).

    Vaughn
    Bravo! Bravo! Well said!

    I think working with my 4x5 is more "Zen like" most of the time than shooting 35mm, but that's certainly not hard and fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Agree! Putting terms as how it is done has possibility of spawning "format wars", where folks who are LF vs say 35 square off and the HCB gets thrown in there and none of it makes any sense. Take photographs, how ever one wishes, and call it a day
    In the words of a blue grass musician I know, "shut up and pick."

    Photographers could take a clue from that. Shut up and shoot, or shut up and print. Better yet, shut up and shoot and print.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    Snappers like Friedlander, Winogrand, and Cartier-Bresson, who never stopped and looked at what was in front of them, never pondered it, and never knew exactly what was on the film until they winnowed the contact sheets ask what I cannot give: To put through my mind stuff they didn't bother putting through theirs.
    Frankly, what a crock. I've seen the display of HCB that was at the Atlanta High Museum recently. It's nothing like my style, but it was superb none the less. The fact that someone does something radically different from what I'm trying to do doesn't make it unvaluable, or mean I can't appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    They are the best, I had a fresh one pan fried on Tuesday night with chips and salad and few (too many) beers
    My fiance does a Snapper Vera Cruz that's delicious. Red snapper covered with diced tomatoes and jalapenos. Mmmmmm....

  7. #47
    Chris Lange's Avatar
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    The entire raison d'etre for 35mm is, in my opinion, the ability to move quickly, quietly, and efficiently. Just because staring at a ground glass pondering suits some, doesn't mean that the spontaneity and flexibility afforded by the sprocket-hole format is of any less value. Who gives a damn if a photograph was "snapped" or "made", if the final result is fabulous? The versatility and visceral nature of speed inherent in the smaller formats is why I love photography. I'm not a "snapper" or a "ponderer" because I "ponder" while on the move, I compose before the viewfinder hits my eye, and I've shot the photograph that I already knew I wanted in the split second it takes me to jam that shutter release down.
    See my work at my website CHRISTOPHER LANGE PHOTOGRAPHY

    or my snaps at my blog MINIMUM DENSITY
    --
    If you don't have it, then you don't have it.

  8. #48

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    I've been a Snapper for years.

    Regards.

    Bob

  9. #49
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    I carry an Olympus Stylus Zoom 140 in the car for just such purposes. The 140 is rather absurdly long and slow (f/9 I believe) but I found the camera for $12 in a thrift store, and it has some "serious photographer friendly" features like focus and exposure memory lock combined with a spot mode. It's handy for "snapping."

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Maris, I fail to see how you can criticize these photographers, unless you can show images of your own that you feel are as good or better.
    The criticism of photographs credited to various famous snappers is not based on what the pictures look like or what they are of. The defect lies in the identity of those photographs as found things, found in a pile of contact sheets, rather than made things, made by a creative process of mind.

    The only worthwhile reason for looking at photographs (or any other kind of picture) in an art context is that they are "mind maps" of the artist. Otherwise with no mind, there's no map, and finally no art. Merely undertaking activities that might lead to finding pretty things in a heap of dross is like going to the beach for seashells. Signing pretty shells does not make the shells art or the signer an artist worthy of reverence.
    Photography, the word itself, invented and defined by its author Sir John.F.W.Herschel, 14 March 1839 at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London. Quote "...Photography or the application of the Chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation,..". unquote.

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