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  1. #91
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    It was a joke!!!!, as I typed already - I find literal reading of such a thought as silly as the proposition
    Yeah, well, I didn't read down thread and connect the dots.

    There's an awfully lot of people in this thread not saying what they mean, and assuming that other people mean other than what they said too. Which, when you think about it, sort of illustrates a point in keeping with the title.

  2. #92
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    No no no... Nothing of the sort! And Instamatics were NOT the same as a Polaroid. Instamatic is 126 film, remember? You still had to process it.

    regardless, I'm just hashing words.. I was referring to the fact that you didn't have to figure out the DoF, or with some cameras, even if you took a great photo, because you can easily just crop it in post, or tell the camera to MAKE IT GREAT.

    I know a lot of the cameras that were sold were simple box-cameras (Kodak Brownie)... but Digital HAS made some photographers lazy. I mean, there's not FIGURING out the DOF scale.. take the shot.. Nope, no good, adjust, shoot again.. Ah, there we go!

    Film = 1 shot.... If it's not right, you don't get a do-over.
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    APS, 35mm, 120, 4x5 and a Deardorff & Sons 4x5 Special under restoration.

    I don't care the format, as long as it's film!

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  3. #93
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkroom317 View Post
    But you don't see people who use acrylic bash people who use oils.
    I'm sure there's an artists' forum somewhere where this happens!


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  4. #94
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven L View Post
    And the chemicals we all (well not all, but a lot) use to clean the toilet, use to color our hair, nail remover etcetera doesn't effect the inviroment?

    Many developers are closely related to chemicals used as drain cleaners.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    Fine. But I'm specifically referring to your apparent criticism of darkroom workers discarding solutions down the drain. The vast majority of them are perfectly save to dispose of that way.
    Correct. Some chemicals are not safe to pour down the drain, the Cibachrome stuff and some toners come to mind. It depends on the amount as well. Anyone talking about film chemistry as a source of pollution should look into where the chemicals put on a golf course (or just their front lawn) go.... and what happens to all those obsolete digicams, not to mention the computers and printers needed to utilise them?
    Last edited by E. von Hoegh; 03-26-2012 at 10:28 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #96
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikendawn View Post
    Film = 1 shot.... If it's not right, you don't get a do-over.
    Well you CAN, the difference is immediacy of feedback. You can shoot several film shots, bracket exposure, various depth of field etc, and I sometimes do some of that (but mostly when the situation is tricky - I find it a sort of shotgun approach for people who are unsure most of the time, and it gets expensive in large format.) The difference is you won't know if you need to do anything different until it's too late.

    That's not entirely bad, and I think digital would have value as a learning medium for film, if you shoot it the same way. Someone should make a digital camera that's all manual (no automatic mode to "cheat" with and use.) Probably wouldn't sell, but it would be a great learning tool for newcomers.

  7. #97
    Worker 11811's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven L View Post
    Do they really think that a little bit of chemical waste that a selective group of people (us APUG-ers) dispose in the sewer will distroy the world? And the chemicals we all (well not all, but a lot) use to clean the toilet, use to color our hair, nail remover etcetera doesn't effect the inviroment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    Many developers are closely related to chemicals used as drain cleaners.
    People use so many chemicals every day, without thinking, it's not even funny. One turn of the ignition key as you get into your car, going to work in the morning, spews more toxic waste than most people can conceive. It is my understanding that it takes one acre of grass and forest to absorb the pollution expelled by the average automobile driving one mile. Then, as Steve says; drain cleaners, window cleaners, kitchen cleaners, bathroom cleaners, etc., etc., etc. We sure dirty up the environment an awful lot in the name of getting clean!

    It is my understanding that, in the moderate quantities that the average home photographer disposes of, a well operated municipal sewer treatment plant will destroy most of the stuff we flush down the drain. The exceptions being silver-saturated fixer, selenium and other exotics. From that, I understand that the CORRECT thing to do is to flush your "standard" developing chemicals down the drain with plenty of water. Again, the key is MODERATE QUANTITIES. If you're flushing five gallons of developer per day, that's not moderate. If you're developing a couple of rolls per week, that's a different story.

    I also believe, if memory serves, except for fixer, it is Kodak's recommendation to flush moderate quantities of developing chemicals down the sewer, using plenty of water to dilute.
    It is also my understanding that Kodak recommends anybody disposing more than moderate quantities of chemistry that would be generated by the average home developer to contact their local authorities and seek advice or proper permits.

    So, yes, this does go right along with the theme of assumption. Most people assume that photo chemistry is the same as nuclear waste but we all know it is nothing of the sort. While nobody would say that photo chemistry is harmless, if handled properly, used properly and disposed of properly, it's nowhere near as harmful as the masses often assume.

    With proper respect, due caution and careful treatment, photo chems are, as Douglas Adams might say, are "Mostly Harmless."
    Randy S.

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  8. #98
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    They are right that it's illegal to do in some places. I never disputed that. I just happen to agree with Kodak that it's not generally HARMFUL, and far less harmful than many routinely used household chemicals.

    The biggest concern with fixer is that some aquatic life is particularly sensitive to silver ion (thus my quip about not putting it into a trout stream.) But it's also true that it won't stay ion very long. I brought this up in another thread once with an interesting reply from someone who actually studied it for an environmental impact statement for his situation. I'll see if I can find that.

    EDIT: Here it is. The crappy search in vBulletin meant I couldn't turn this up using the search here but Google did:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/9...y-101-a-2.html

    http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1241308

    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    Roger Cole is right. In moderate quantities (pounds, not tons) silver tetrathionate and similar compounds which characterise used fixer don't harm sewerage treatment systems. The silver very quickly gets converted to silver sulphide in the presence of the free sulphide ion. Silver sulphide is geologically stable and inert and has one of the lowest solubility products known in chemistry. The stability and inertness of silver sulphide is the key to the remarkable archival properties of sepia toned photographs.

    Before my darkroom was approved by my local council I had to calculate the silver concentration in my total household effluent. I'm pretty busy and use a few thousand sheets of film and paper per year but the result came to about 5 parts per billion. By the time this mixes with the output of the other 20 000 households that don't process photographic materials the silver concentration is below any conceivable detection limit down at the sewerage treatment plant.
    Last edited by Roger Cole; 03-26-2012 at 10:34 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven L View Post
    That's when I show them two pictures. One made with a fairly good digital SLR, printed on good quality paper with a decent printer. Second picture made with the analogue SLR, printed at the local 35mm print shop. That's when they know why.
    You have a print shop that still makes decent prints? They're becoming a rarity here. Most places now, if you drop off a roll of film and ask for prints, you get back some pretty crappy digital prints that weren't really worth paying for at all.
    "People get bumped off." -- Weegee

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worker 11811 View Post
    I don't think "eye" is as important as some people think.
    Wow, tell that to my editors at the New York Times, National Geographic Adventure and all the other clients I shoot for and they will laugh at you.

    There is no substitute for raw talent my friend, some people have it, most don't. It can be developed to a point, after that, you are only going to get so good.
    "I'm the freak that shoots film. God bless the freaks!" ~ Mainecoonmaniac ~

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