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  1. #71
    MattKing's Avatar
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    This has been a good thread.

    It is amazing what including words like "reconciliation" and "alternative" in the title of a thread can do.

    Especially when it is in the "Ethics and Philosophy" forum.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  2. #72
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coigach View Post
    Can only speak for me personally, but I take my originals on medium format reverse processed trannies, and never plan to change film for digital.

    For my polymer photogravures, I use digitally enlarged +ves to make my plates, then it's old fashioned hands-on from then on.
    coigach,

    You could do this pure analog if you felt the need to. And APUG would be where you would find detailed steps to minimize image degradation due to the necessary generation or two of loss. I used to use a contact film designed for photopolymer which had texture to minimize newton rings that tended to form on the smooth surface of the polymer. Even then I had to endure some loss because I was making a sandwich involving base to emulsion.

    There is a specific advantage of hybrid for you: The only generation loss comes from the initial scan. Then you can invert and flip digitally without intermediates. This alone I feel doesn't interfere with artistic intent.

    I say more power to you.

    But while the image is in the digital realm, there is intense pressure to use tools to modify the image (the dodge and burn wands issue). Here there is a risk you will make the final print "better" than a traditional alt process print would have been in the old days.

    I would miss the charming dust, hairs and scratches if you removed them.

  3. #73
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    What I find incredible is the ability to do an exposure and contrast sweep, by ganging up multiple versions on one film and then contacting to see subtle changes of contrast and its effect on the final print. This would be incredibly difficult using traditional methods, we did film stripping in the day to get around this when testing work but it really was labour intensive.
    I spent 5 years of my apprenticeship years doing photo comp which blended many images on single sheets of film.. With new technology we can do the same thing in fraction of the time. The most complicated was 56 different images composed onto one 16 x20 sheet of E6 for a Creative Source Book Cover.
    There is not enough money in the world to convince me to make a traditional approach to montage a series of films or try what at the time was the only method, by using and exacto knife and rubylith and days of manipulation and colour balances to make it work.

    There are many here still making contrast control negatives for various processes and I see nothing wrong with this, I am convinced though that I will continue
    with the modern tech for these purposes... others will not.

    I made enlarged negatives via contact dupe and enlarger negative for alt prints and I would not hesitate to encourage photographers to try this route. It is our history , and should continue keeping the tradition alive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    coigach,

    You could do this pure analog if you felt the need to. And APUG would be where you would find detailed steps to minimize image degradation due to the necessary generation or two of loss. I used to use a contact film designed for photopolymer which had texture to minimize newton rings that tended to form on the smooth surface of the polymer. Even then I had to endure some loss because I was making a sandwich involving base to emulsion.

    There is a specific advantage of hybrid for you: The only generation loss comes from the initial scan. Then you can invert and flip digitally without intermediates. This alone I feel doesn't interfere with artistic intent.

    I say more power to you.

    But while the image is in the digital realm, there is intense pressure to use tools to modify the image (the dodge and burn wands issue). Here there is a risk you will make the final print "better" than a traditional alt process print would have been in the old days.

    I would miss the charming dust, hairs and scratches if you removed them.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    I would miss the charming dust, hairs and scratches if you removed them.

    I'm sure there are digital applications that will add them to a d-image if you really miss them.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    I spent 5 years of my apprenticeship years doing photo comp which blended many images on single sheets of film.. With new technology we can do the same thing in fraction of the time. The most complicated was 56 different images composed onto one 16 x20 sheet of E6 for a Creative Source Book Cover.
    When I was doing the initial development work at Kodak in the late '80s that led to the Premiere Image Enhancement System (film in -digital photo comp - film out), I visited many commercial labs around the US and was always amazed at the skill and time involved in making photo comps; I saw many examples of fantastic in-camera masking photo comp work.


    Premiere still required an operator with artistic skills, but made them more productive.

  6. #76
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Then you may find this interesting... The lab I worked at BGM Colour Lab was one of the first in Canada to get a Premier System, I left the company to start my own little BW shop before the Premier launched world wide, but I had lots of visits to my friends at BGM so I was well aware of its incredible design and application, which you should be very proud.

    At BGM I worked on a Lisle Overhead Camera system that used Xy bubble memory system computers that drove an overhead copy camera that had front light and back light HK head to expose film of any type.
    Using masks in the back of the camera that was pin registered and pin registered mylar which had stripped in trans , negs and positives we could manipulate the images into position.
    The back end had the ability of rotating and moving masking blades .0001 inch at a movement.
    This unit was in its day 500k to purchase and I remember meeting the young man who owned Durst Italy , he looked at this unit and a lot of Lambda design was figured out with this primitive device I used.
    The Premier was exactly in between the Lisle and Lambda as you would make incredible film negatives with the Premiere and then enlarged that film.
    I have always been dissapointed that I never worked with the Premier as I was one of about 10 techs worldwide to work on a Lisle Camera and now I own a Lambda for a lot of the alt negs I talk about here can be made with it and for sure the Premier system could do so as well.

    One of my heros is Jerry Uelsmann who could make things float on film.. I am not sure how many here know how incredible his work is.. Bob Pace was another who worked on Photo Comp and IMO nowhere near
    the skill level as Jerry.
    At our lab we had the Lisle and I had two full time assistants at all times, but we also had five other Photo Comp specialists who needed to know how to handle a knife, Micro Modifer, line and lith film, with ruby masking and as well using an enlarger to blend it all together. This department was called the Repro department and all the techs were very strong in their ability's and complimented each other and helped each other on the more complicated projects.
    One little know Canadian fact.. It was illegal to photograph a cigarette package for advertising packaging, so we had to start with a roll of white paper and with a knife start making the packaging to mimic what a real pack of cigarettes would look like, This was something I never did as one really needed to have a skill set that I did not have, or the patience as one cigarette ad would take a week for one of our techs and would cost the client thousands of dollars.
    The Premier was the first wave of devices that made this labour intensive work more exacting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof_Pixel View Post
    When I was doing the initial development work at Kodak in the late '80s that led to the Premiere Image Enhancement System (film in -digital photo comp - film out), I visited many commercial labs around the US and was always amazed at the skill and time involved in making photo comps; I saw many examples of fantastic in-camera masking photo comp work.


    Premiere still required an operator with artistic skills, but made them more productive.

  7. #77
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I like Jerry Uelsmann's work too.

    Your story's better than mine Bob. So I'll give the short version:

    About 25 years ago customer terminated their contract and they wanted their negs. Everything was on the Digi. Boss made me output separations onto film to simulate the intermediates that would have been required to make the composite film we had been running their jobs from.

  8. #78
    Mainecoonmaniac's Avatar
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    I'm interested in the creative control a digital neg can give a platinum printer. Dodging and burning as well as tonal contro is a whole lot easier on a computer. Am I wrong?

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac View Post
    I'm interested in the creative control a digital neg can give a platinum printer. Dodging and burning as well as tonal contro is a whole lot easier on a computer. Am I wrong?
    Of course it is. And that's probably the reason why many argue against it. If it is not a difficult analogue process and doesn't involve torture, it's just not pure enough. I can make a good traditional print but I'm not that stuck in my purist ways to deny that a hybrid process does facilitate (and enable) certain steps in regards to alt process and even silver printing.

  10. #80
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac View Post
    I'm interested in the creative control a digital neg can give a platinum printer. Dodging and burning as well as tonal contro is a whole lot easier on a computer. Am I wrong?
    I don't find dodging and burning to be any easier on a computer.

    Spotting? That definitely is easier!
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2



 

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