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Thread: Fine Art Status

  1. #51

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    MaximusM3 said " for contemporary art collectors it’s much more about the object itself—they couldn’t care if it’s a dye transfer or a pigment print or whatever, as long as the object itself is totally amazing, that’s what they care about."

    I would add it must compliment the fabric on the couch it will be hung over.

    Do what you want. Satisfy yourself. If you by chance become popular and collectors really want your pieces, they will be the ones to get rich off your works after you are dead.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    MaximusM3 said " for contemporary art collectors it’s much more about the object itself—they couldn’t care if it’s a dye transfer or a pigment print or whatever, as long as the object itself is totally amazing, that’s what they care about."

    I would add it must compliment the fabric on the couch it will be hung over.

    Do what you want. Satisfy yourself. If you by chance become popular and collectors really want your pieces, they will be the ones to get rich off your works after you are dead.
    Agree Mark The first quote wasn't mine btw, and I don't necessarily agree with it. It may be that way for some, but not all.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    Really? how does that work?? Once you have an image done, finished, on your screen, an Epson 7890 can crank out 100 IDENTICAL 11x14 prints in about 8 hours. Do you really think you could get 100 complex prints, that require dodging, burning, maybe masking, bleaching, toning, washing, drying in 8 hours?? AND do you truly believe that it is not harder to produce 100 beautiful silver gelatin prints than it is spitting out inkjets, even after counting maybe one hour of post processing work in front of a screen? Please, let's get real.
    When I do gravure, even after I get a plate finished, it probably takes me 4-5 hours to get five prints that I consider worthy of being framed, sold, or for a gallery show. It is NOT the same, for as much as you want to believe otherwise.
    OK lets say it takes a week. You can still produce far more than the limited edition number if you wanted to.

    What I said was that either medium could over produce limited editions if they were unscrupulous.

    On top of that you could crank out analog prints in a factory setting much like Kinkade did.

    There is certainly no guarantee that "hand made" is a protected limited edition any more than anything else is if someone wanted to cheat the marketplace.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Will the continued use of digital photography elevate more film photography to a fine art status in the future? I’m thinking here in terms of a comparison to painting when photography came along. I would like to think so.
    No, the continued use of digital cameras will eventually lead to more sophisticated image making and innovation. At that point, when somebody comes along and shows us how digital cameras can be used with a straight, no frills sensibility, this is when I will forget about film and join the revolution. FYI, 'fine art photography' doesn't have any meaning anymore, except where the marketing of amateur work online is concerned. Please update your terminology.
    Last edited by batwister; 10-16-2012 at 10:36 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    What they are buying is an image that moves them, printed on beautiful art paper, using a process that is laborious, time consuming, frustrating at times, expensive, but again, the end result are gorgeous, unique, handmade prints and that's where a lot of the value lies.
    I think that, quality and appeal of the image aside, a good marketer would always find the way to sell the laborious, time consuming, frustrating, unique, handmade, non-repeatable and rare attributes as an added value. The qualities quoted by Massimo are exactly what might, in the future, make analogue stand out. I repeat I mean that coeteris paribus. The fact that the process used by Massimo is "hybrid" and not strictly entirely analogue is not the point. The point is that the halo of sanctity which shines over carefully handmade objects is a selling point and adds value even in those cases where the numeric-controlled machine would in theory make a better work.

    If that wasn't the case people would buy reproduction of famous paintings instead of original paintings. With modern techniques it is possible to have a PERFECT-looking reproduction of let's say a painting by Caravaggio, with all the paint relief, which is probably indistinguishable from the original at first, second and third sight. But the mind knows it's just a factory product.

    There's a mystique in "hand-made" objects which sells. Digital workflow even when "laborious, time consuming and frustrating" IMO will never manage to acquire the same halo.

    All this cannot be a substitute for the basic qualities of a print, its visual appeal etc. But it can be used as an added point of interest, and as an added point of value.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    I think that, quality and appeal of the image aside, a good marketer would always find the way to sell the laborious, time consuming, frustrating, unique, handmade, non-repeatable and rare attributes as an added value. The qualities quoted by Massimo are exactly what might, in the future, make analogue stand out. I repeat I mean that coeteris paribus. The fact that the process used by Massimo is "hybrid" and not strictly entirely analogue is not the point. The point is that the halo of sanctity which shines over carefully handmade objects is a selling point and adds value even in those cases where the numeric-controlled machine would in theory make a better work.

    If that wasn't the case people would buy reproduction of famous paintings instead of original paintings. With modern techniques it is possible to have a PERFECT-looking reproduction of let's say a painting by Caravaggio, with all the paint relief, which is probably indistinguishable from the original at first, second and third sight. But the mind knows it's just a factory product.

    There's a mystique in "hand-made" objects which sells. Digital workflow even when "laborious, time consuming and frustrating" IMO will never manage to acquire the same halo.

    All this cannot be a substitute for the basic qualities of a print, its visual appeal etc. But it can be used as an added point of interest, and as an added point of value.
    Yes, I believe you are correct in your assessments, Fabrizio. BTW..the "laborious, time consuming and frustrating" part wasn't in reference to the digital workflow of the process. That is the fairly easy part (and not without pitfalls, by any stretch of the imagination). What comes after that, with copper plate photogravure, is an entirely different story.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by batwister View Post
    No, the continued use of digital cameras will eventually lead to more sophisticated image making and innovation. At that point, when somebody comes along and shows us how digital cameras can be used with a straight, no frills sensibility, this is when I will forget about film and join the revolution. FYI, 'fine art photography' doesn't have any meaning anymore, except where the marketing of amateur work online is concerned. Please update your terminology.
    Why ask him to update his terminology when you are merely voicing an opinion which is not really fact altogether?

    First off, if you think that the term "Fine Art Photography" has been swallowed up into the nauseating abyss of amateur online digital work, you would be incorrect and probably spend too much time online. You need to go to good galleries who show good work in towns that have a more cultured approach to representing art and art history, NY, Paris, London, Prague, LA, Sante Fe and even lil' ol' Aspen...

    Secondly, you are thinking of digital photography from a photographer's perspective, not a consumer or educated art aficionado perspective. The reason this is important to consider is that nothing is more over hyped and over-promoted and self serving as the internet / digital age. I read two stories on the AP wire that had nothing to do with technology and yet, the writer had to be sure and beat me over the head with how many hits, tweets and views a story topic had in social media....technology loves to talk about it self and make you believe that is all there is...I call it the "TMZ" effect...

    So if the public is getting their head beaten in by all the new hype, then everyone, even the people who promote the hype need a break. They need tactility, a shower, food, love, a walk, fresh air....or they need to go lose them self in staring at giant paintings in the Louvre for awhile. In short, they need to feed upon something that is not derived of a computer...or a computer camera or print for that matter as in this case.

    Simply put, people know how the world now works, there is the computer and then there is everything else that is not a computer...

    It's all too easy for photo-centric circles to get lost in the technology versus value versus which is better arguments. So it is also easy to lose sight of the fact that even though there are many opinions to the contrary, smart self educating people who would most likely be your customer simply know better when it comes to what is hand made and what is not.....they want to know so they find the answers...

    It does not matter at this point how good digital anything gets, it is still not hand made in the sense of the term that most people relate to. That genie is out of the bottle, everyone knows how easy it is to mass produce so called "Art" on a computer.....no matter how much time *you* might have spent in front of the computer...it still was made on a computer, period. Maybe if this astounding technology were used in say, 1975 and no one else was using it on their laptop and even their phones, it might be viewed differently by the art world and the consumer. But this is not the case, digital has both saturated it self and devalued it self very quickly...and it is still said to be just getting started, so imagine the carnage of value yet to come, yikes!

    So I stand by my assertions and my own personal experience.....

    If your product, any product for that matter, is truly handmade and is *exceptional* in it's level of artistic merit, well marketed and talked about, you might just do great. But with digital, there is simply no assurance of that based on the growing perceptions that the public has.

    Of course it is up to us the analog shooter to educate the viewers of our work to a degree, but in some ways, the digital engine is educating people too with the now near weekly articles of the ubiquitous nature of photography and the subsequent devaluing of it in terms of pros making a living. So in some ways, the marketing of analog becoming an ever more rare and unique and a worthy art form from a gallery perspective is happening automatically....

    This is a good, GOOD thing.....

    Ten years from now, the notion of handmade compared to computer made will astound you in what it will have done to the public's perception or art and music...it is already happening...but man, you have not seen anything yet.....
    Last edited by PKM-25; 10-16-2012 at 12:26 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #58
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    Think of statues. You're looking to drop a couple g's on decorating your garden with a giant bronze Elk statue and you see the one you want and it's marked 25k. Ok you say, you inquire, and learn that it's not forged individually, but rather comes out a perfect forge machine and there is an inventory of about 50 waiting for other customers. Now at the same price, across the street, there is one that was done by hand by the artist selling it for the exact same price.

    Which would you choose? --even if they were identical?

    Now for me, I dabble in all sides. I play with hybrid workflow and diginegs, but still do plenty of darkroom work...hell I scan color slides and print on an inkjet. I think all methods are equally capable of producing amazing results, but I think my above analogy stands.
    Last edited by Klainmeister; 10-16-2012 at 12:41 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    K.S. Klain

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    Why ask him to update his terminology when you are merely voicing an opinion which is not really fact altogether?

    First off, if you think that the term "Fine Art Photography" has been swallowed up into the nauseating abyss of amateur online digital work, you would be incorrect and probably spend too much time online. You need to go to good galleries who show good work in towns that have a more cultured approach to representing art and art history, NY, Paris, London, Prague, LA, Sante Fe and even lil' ol' Aspen...

    Secondly, you are thinking of digital photography from a photographer's perspective, not a consumer or educated art aficionado perspective. The reason this is important to consider is that nothing is more over hyped and over-promoted and self serving as the internet / digital age. I read two stories on the AP wire that had nothing to do with technology and yet, the writer had to be sure and beat me over the head with how many hits, tweets and views a story topic had in social media....technology loves to talk about it self and make you believe that is all there is...I call it the "TMZ" effect...

    So if the public is getting their head beaten in by all the new hype, then everyone, even the people who promote the hype need a break. They need tactility, a shower, food, love, a walk, fresh air....or they need to go lose them self in staring at giant paintings in the Louvre for awhile. In short, they need to feed upon something that is not derived of a computer...or a computer camera or print for that matter as in this case.

    Simply put, people know how the world now works, there is the computer and then there is everything else that is not a computer...

    It's all too easy for photo-centric circles to get lost in the technology versus value versus which is better arguments. So it is also easy to lose sight of the fact that even though there are many opinions to the contrary, smart self educating people who would most likely be your customer simply know better when it comes to what is hand made and what is not.....they want to know so they find the answers...

    It does not matter at this point how good digital anything gets, it is still not hand made in the sense of the term that most people relate to. That genie is out of the bottle, everyone knows how easy it is to mass produce so called "Art" on a computer.....no matter how much time *you* might have spent in front of the computer...it still was made on a computer, period. Maybe if this astounding technology were used in say, 1975 and no one else was using it on their laptop and even their phones, it might be viewed differently by the art world and the consumer. But this is not the case, digital has both saturated it self and devalued it self very quickly...and it is still said to be just getting started, so imagine the carnage of value yet to come, yikes!

    So I stand by my assertions and my own personal experience.....

    If your product, any product for that matter, is truly handmade and is *exceptional* in it's level of artistic merit, well marketed and talked about, you might just do great. But with digital, there is simply no assurance of that based on the growing perceptions that the public has.

    Of course it is up to us the analog shooter to educate the viewers of our work to a degree, but in some ways, the digital engine is educating people too with the now near weekly articles of the ubiquitous nature of photography and the subsequent devaluing of it in terms of pros making a living. So in some ways, the marketing of analog becoming an ever more rare and unique and a worthy art form from a gallery perspective is happening automatically....

    This is a good, GOOD thing.....

    Ten years from now, the notion of handmade compared to computer made will astound you in what it will have done to the public's perception or art and music...it is already happening...but man, you have not seen anything yet.....
    AMEN!

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    Why ask him to update his terminology when you are merely voicing an opinion which is not really fact altogether?

    First off, if you think that the term "Fine Art Photography" has been swallowed up into the nauseating abyss of amateur online digital work, you would be incorrect and probably spend too much time online. You need to go to good galleries who show good work in towns that have a more cultured approach to representing art and art history, NY, Paris, London, Prague, LA, Sante Fe and even lil' ol' Aspen...

    Secondly, you are thinking of digital photography from a photographer's perspective, not a consumer or educated art aficionado perspective. The reason this is important to consider is that nothing is more over hyped and over-promoted and self serving as the internet / digital age. I read two stories on the AP wire that had nothing to do with technology and yet, the writer had to be sure and beat me over the head with how many hits, tweets and views a story topic had in social media....technology loves to talk about it self and make you believe that is all there is...I call it the "TMZ" effect...

    So if the public is getting their head beaten in by all the new hype, then everyone, even the people who promote the hype need a break. They need tactility, a shower, food, love, a walk, fresh air....or they need to go lose them self in staring at giant paintings in the Louvre for awhile. In short, they need to feed upon something that is not derived of a computer...or a computer camera or print for that matter as in this case.

    Simply put, people know how the world now works, there is the computer and then there is everything else that is not a computer...

    It's all too easy for photo-centric circles to get lost in the technology versus value versus which is better arguments. So it is also easy to lose sight of the fact that even though there are many opinions to the contrary, smart self educating people who would most likely be your customer simply know better when it comes to what is hand made and what is not.....they want to know so they find the answers...

    It does not matter at this point how good digital anything gets, it is still not hand made in the sense of the term that most people relate to. That genie is out of the bottle, everyone knows how easy it is to mass produce so called "Art" on a computer.....no matter how much time *you* might have spent in front of the computer...it still was made on a computer, period. Maybe if this astounding technology were used in say, 1975 and no one else was using it on their laptop and even their phones, it might be viewed differently by the art world and the consumer. But this is not the case, digital has both saturated it self and devalued it self very quickly...and it is still said to be just getting started, so imagine the carnage of value yet to come, yikes!

    So I stand by my assertions and my own personal experience.....

    If your product, any product for that matter, is truly handmade and is *exceptional* in it's level of artistic merit, well marketed and talked about, you might just do great. But with digital, there is simply no assurance of that based on the growing perceptions that the public has.

    Of course it is up to us the analog shooter to educate the viewers of our work to a degree, but in some ways, the digital engine is educating people too with the now near weekly articles of the ubiquitous nature of photography and the subsequent devaluing of it in terms of pros making a living. So in some ways, the marketing of analog becoming an ever more rare and unique and a worthy art form from a gallery perspective is happening automatically....

    This is a good, GOOD thing.....

    Ten years from now, the notion of handmade compared to computer made will astound you in what it will have done to the public's perception or art and music...it is already happening...but man, you have not seen anything yet.....
    Well said.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon



 

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