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  1. #21
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I get asked to do these things occasionally too, but basically promise nothing, for the very reason you stated.

    It does bring back an interesting memory, though, of a friend of mine who got married in September 2009, I think just before 'everybody' had a way to post their snaps all over the internet within minutes. They had hired pro photographers to shoot the wedding. I remember two people moving around with two DSLRs each, snapping away, often in very rapid sequence of some compositions.
    I brought a Mamiya 645 with a 300mm lens on it and Delta 3200 film. I shot 30 frames while the pros shot (i'm not joking) 3,600 frames. I had a nice 11x14 print ready and framed for the couple next day, while the wedding photographers took weeks to have anything to present.

    So, whenever I get asked to 'attend with a camera' I tell them I charge nothing, and I will accept no direction. Then I process the film as soon as I get home, dry it, and slap it on the scanner. I pick a few good frames, and make decent web size scans of them, and email to those who asked me. And then I make a print or two. By moving quickly (for film) I can keep their interest alive, and have a print in their hands very rapidly. I know what size I'm going to print so I have pre-cut window-mats ready to use, and usually a frame too if they're willing to reimburse me for it. It works well, and usually people keep my print on the wall and at least walk past it every day. I do confess I take some satisfaction in that.

    Wedding photographers hate people like you.

    Imagine any other profession, and somebody showed up and was doing what the pro was hired to do, and undercutting their work.

    Imagine going to a doctor and while the doctor was consulting you, the friend that came along was offering advice and was diagnosing you.

    Photographers are the only profession where amateurs are able to be present and inject themselves in some way.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  2. #22
    dpurdy's Avatar
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    People accepting no payment have ruined wedding photography for professionals just as much as all the digital do it on the cheap photographers.
    That whole era of making the photographer integral to the event and the memories is gone. The photographers making good money now on weddings
    are working for couples who have a lot of family money and they don't allow other photographers to shoot.
    The last wedding I did last year I had turned from my spot up front to catch the bride walking with her father, when I turned back to get her walking up the isle
    from my front position, there were at least 5 friends and family members kneeling in the isle in front of me to get the shot. That the shot she got.
    Rollei originally produced the Rolleiwide so that a wedding photographer could stand in front of people and still get it all in.
    If I was that woman who's proposal was turned into a family function with photographers, I would have changed my mind and said you gotta be kidding.

  3. #23
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    Wedding photographers hate people like you.

    Imagine any other profession, and somebody showed up and was doing what the pro was hired to do, and undercutting their work.

    Imagine going to a doctor and while the doctor was consulting you, the friend that came along was offering advice and was diagnosing you.

    Photographers are the only profession where amateurs are able to be present and inject themselves in some way.
    I never interfere with the pros, as I usually am confined to one single spot in the audience. And the pros still get paid. Why should they hate me? It's not like I advertise my services, I'm just there because people ask me to. They don't know my terms up front, it's only when I tell them that I take no payment and accept no direction that they realize they're getting something for free, and I ask them to tell their hired photographers that I will be there with my camera, taking a couple of photos, but keeping out of their way.

    I would think that if the pros did a better job they could beat me to the punch and use instant upload on web sites and social media.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    If I was that woman who's proposal was turned into a family function with photographers, I would have changed my mind and said you gotta be kidding.

    I realize this is an internet forum. I didn't explain all the background either. If you knew this particular set of families and their dynamics and the couple involved, you'd know it wouldn't have been an issue. We (the photographers) did ask that question to the parent.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    People accepting no payment have ruined wedding photography for professionals just as much as all the digital do it on the cheap photographers.

    The only "jobs" I accept are from people who would not or cannot have hired a pro to do the work. I did a wedding once, free. If we weren't there, there was going to be some disposable cameras on tables. The family was going to do "their best".
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    If I was that woman who's proposal was turned into a family function with photographers, I would have changed my mind and said you gotta be kidding.
    I know some families are closer than others, but I can relate to this sentiment. I was in a similar situation when my first son was born. Imagine my surprise when my wife's parents invited themselves into the birthing room... her mom thought it was OK to sit there with her crotchet work and her dad with the newspaper. I had other ideas... like that was a "private time" and no matter how close her family is that was a bit too much closeness. Fortunately they left when I mentioned that there appeared no need for me there and I'd be waiting at a local bar.

  7. #27
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I never interfere with the pros, as I usually am confined to one single spot in the audience. And the pros still get paid. Why should they hate me? It's not like I advertise my services, I'm just there because people ask me to. They don't know my terms up front, it's only when I tell them that I take no payment and accept no direction that they realize they're getting something for free, and I ask them to tell their hired photographers that I will be there with my camera, taking a couple of photos, but keeping out of their way.

    I would think that if the pros did a better job they could beat me to the punch and use instant upload on web sites and social media.
    Because the simple fact that you are there with a camera, are supplying the people with photography, and you are even insinuating that you are doing a better job is the reason.

    In fact some pros do upload to social media, but they also want to make money off their work and not spread it around for free.

    As I said before, in what other profession are amateurs allowed to be present, and offering their services while the pro is working.

    I've had people try to bring along a friend with a camera, to outdoor family portraits I was doing. Naturally, I made them stand far away when I was working. But as I was leaving, I saw them do my setups with their friend, so that they could use those pictures for other things. Those other things are what can cut into my profits.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  8. #28
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    So if I am going to a wedding, where the bride and groom have asked me to take pictures, I should do what so that the pros are happy? Say no, just so that the hired photographer doesn't have any 'competition'? Excuse me while I chuckle. Any pro photographer that views me as competition needs to up their game, significantly.

    I don't pretend to be a pro, so please don't go there, and I'm not eating into the profits of the hired gun - they still get paid. I am an amateur that happens to be decent with a camera, and I deliver something in addition to what the pros were hired to do - a print for the bride and groom, a gift from me to them to remember their beautiful day by. What is so wrong with that? I just don't see it. Perhaps you are stuck in your viewpoint a little bit too much here. There are other vantage points - that of the bride and groom, or whomever asked you to be there. What damage am I actually doing? What did the hired pro lose by me being there?

    And believe you me I work in an industry where there are lots of hacks who pretend to be professionals. My line of work is in the HVAC industry, connected to all sorts of functions in industrial, commercial, and residential heating, ventilation, and airconditioning. A lot of people don't mind hiring people without proper accreditation to get the job done; friends, relatives, handymen that stretch beyond their capabilities - making mistakes in installations with things that can go boom, with burnt down homes or even apartment buildings as a result. What you talk about, with hacks doing the work of professionals, is everywhere; it isn't exactly confined to photography.
    Last edited by Thomas Bertilsson; 10-15-2012 at 12:59 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  9. #29
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    So if I am going to a wedding, where the bride and groom have asked me to take pictures, I should do what so that the pros are happy? Say no, just so that the hired photographer doesn't have any 'competition'? Excuse me while I chuckle. Any pro photographer that views me as competition needs to up their game, significantly.

    I don't pretend to be a pro, so please don't go there, and I'm not eating into the profits of the hired gun - they still get paid. I am an amateur that happens to be decent with a camera, and I deliver something in addition to what the pros were hired to do - a print for the bride and groom, a gift from me to them to remember their beautiful day by. What is so wrong with that? I just don't see it. Perhaps you are stuck in your viewpoint a little bit too much here. There are other vantage points - that of the bride and groom, or whomever asked you to be there. What damage am I actually doing? What did the hired pro lose by me being there?
    You are exactly the problem. You are a distraction. You by your presence "enable" others to join in. You are the proverbial "Uncle Harry" at the wedding. You secretly see yourself as competition. You think the pro is worried that your work may be better than his. You have a self righteous opinion that you deserve to be there. Your attitude is EXACTLY what pro's hate at their weddings.

    Pretend that there were nobody there besides the pro with a camera. He could work unencumbered, with nobody stepping into his shots. No idiot firing off a flash while he is shooting available light. Because as soon as one person gets up and tries to take pictures, it emboldens others to do the same. Added people taking pictures are a distraction because the subject can tend to look around instead of looking where the pro is. Flash pictures can make people blink. Others people taking pictures get in the way and they also suck out time the pro could be using.

    The pro can't really say anything to people with cameras because he doesn't want to poison the atmosphere, upset the wedding couple, parents etc.

    He loses money from sales to family of extra prints. A known fact. Check with PPA.

    So while you pretend you are there because the bride or groom asked you to, you are indeed disrupting the pro whether you choose to believe it or not.

    And your example of hacks is not the same. Your example is about competition. Mine is about people on the scene while I'm engaging the subject. Completely different. Everybody has competition, no matter how professional they are. Your analogy would only work if someone was installing air conditioning at the same time, same place while you were and disrupting your work.
    Last edited by blansky; 10-15-2012 at 01:26 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  10. #30
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I disagree with you. But I don't want to argue with you, so I'm going to stop. It's pointless and waste of energy I should be spending elsewhere.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

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