I started out my post, as you might recall, with the info that the photo classes I've taken have had more women than men. None of these classes shied away from technical info either. In fact, the one instructor I had who didn't even get most of the technical info right and printed his example for the class on the back of a sheet of paper was a guy. And I don't know any female photographer on here who doesn't have a good grasp of the technical aspects. I also know more women than men working as photographers outside of APUG.
Originally Posted by Helinophoto
Maybe you're not trying to be condescending, but the sound of your posts very much fits the bill.
I'm deleting the rest of what I was going to post to save Suzanne the trouble. (Go Suzanne, btw)
I agree with those saying that women tend not to be so interested in these forums but here in my rather large photographic circle I would say at least half are women if not more than half. The curator of photography at the Portland Art Museum is a woman. I used to have a lot more custom lab clients than I have now. Now my last 2 main clients are women.
My question is why don't women drink single malt scotch and why do they have so many book clubs.
How many of those students stayed involved in photography after graduating or leaving school? As I mentioned, exactly ONE of the women in my college photo classes stuck with it after graduating. ONE. Out of 14 or 15. Out of the 10 men in the program, 6 are still doing photography. Four of us are fulltime pros. So is the one woman.
Originally Posted by winger
Women are absolutely capable of mastering the technical aspects of it. My former classmate did, and she is a very creative artist whose work I love. I respect her as a person and an artist. There are several women here on APUG and on the Leica users group and Rangefinderforum (other places I talk photography online) who also create magnificent work and have mastered the technical stuff too. Still, based on what I have seen, I think most women do not have the desire to do so or the drive to succeed as professionals. If that upsets women, they alone have the power to change it. Shooting the messenger might make you feel good, but it changes nothing.
Still, based on what I have seen, I think most women do not have the desire to do so or the drive to succeed as professionals. If that upsets women, they alone have the power to change it.
I think you're just ignorant, and basing your judgments only on your personal experience. I don't mean "ignorant" in a pejorative sense, but just a matter of fact one.
Also, what is a "professional" to you? Someone who does commercial work? What about photographers who make bodies of work of their own design and don't do anything else? I know plenty of women doing just that.
Fine Art Photography of Indiana and other places no one else photographs.
Surely someone's told you that there's no such place?
Women are.... Men are....
Aren't we making pretty BIG generalizations? Most of what are being said in this thread do not apply to men and women in my immediate social circles - photographers and non-photographers.
Personally (and I am a male), I do not go to photography shows or shows of most kinds in other areas of interest. My local camera store actually has a female staff. Some of the topic on photo forums do not interest me where as some do. I have no idea why these things seems to be dominated by men. Oh, yeah, I LOVE equipment... (as I look through KEH for third time today...)
Last edited by tkamiya; 01-05-2013 at 01:14 AM. Click to view previous post history.
Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?
Sponsored Ad. (Subscribers to APUG have the option to remove this ad.)
Well, I knew with a header like that, the misogynists would be coming out of the wood work.
I appreciate APUG a lot for its scope, and the fact that it is not hip deep in sexism, as some other forums are. Thanks to all the outstanding men and women on this forum who have made it such a friendly and exciting place to visit. And a thank you and a hug to Matt King - see you later this year, I hope.
Women and men do live in different worlds, to some extent. World wide women carry the lions share of the work of caring for babies, children, the disabled and the elderly. More women live in poverty than men. More women are victims of domestic violence than men. Brains, ability, creativity, guts, tenacity are not exclusive to either gender, but the chance to use them for more than keeping yourself and your children alive is not always evenly distributed.
Chris - you comment on women not being serious enough for the tough work of photography. I don't know how long ago you studied, but I wonder if you have actually asked any of your previous female classmates why they are not working as professional photographers.
I studied photography decades ago. I dropped out because of the relentless sexual harassment of one teacher - the BIG NAME at the school. When I tried to report his actions I was told I should be flattered (!!) Obviously I wasn't tough enough for the manly profession of photography. I worked in a camera store (the owner was a woman) for awhile, then I had my first child, my second...... And my life became centred on parenting. My experiences as a mother led to new interests and passions, a return to study and a career. Photography was in eclipse for many years, because there just wasn't time for it. I returned to it as my kids got into their teen years. It has been a important stress breaker and creative outlet for me. Am I a professional? No. Am I serious about photography? Can't imagine life without it.
Again a big thanks to the majority here on APUG, for welcoming everyone, and being such a terrific source of information, support, humour and wisdom.
A thought occurs. On forums, not just this one, I wonder if there is any percentage of men who pretend to be women and women who pretend to be men - it's all virtually anonymous (OK I know a few people know each other personally). I have no idea, but could be an interesting statistic. It is unlikely to be zero - or is it? discuss!
Well now that's about as sensible as a tutu on an elephant. What porn flick have you been watching where all the high-end saleswomen are pretty and young? I'll give you the impeccably dressed bit, but most of the salespeople I know who handle exotic cars or high-end real estate are older, be they men or women, and they exude professionalism, not sex.
Originally Posted by johnielvis
There used to be one woman at my local camera store who was my favorite salesperson there. She has since left, but in talking to her, she explained that she encountered frequent sexism from male customers who would ask for and wait for a male salesman because they felt she couldn't know enough to wait on them. She was actually one of the most technically accomplished photographers in the store. She helped me once, and was so good with her answer and her advice that I kept coming back, and we became friends. And she certainly wasn't going to be using her sexual wiles to seduce customers into buying gear by flirting with them- she's a flannel-and-hiking-boots wearing, hasnt-used-lipstick-since-junior-prom, mullet-sporting lesbian. She had no interest in flirting with the customers, male or female, as she was also happily partnered. And as I already mentioned, a damn fine photographer.
I'm not interested in shooting the messenger, but I think the message is flawed. You're making some sweeping generalizations about women based on rather narrow anecdotal evidence, I'd say. So, I'll offer my own anecdotal evidence, and broad sweeping conclusion: I can't speak to my classmates from art school as I've lost touch with many of them, but if my experience as a photography editor at a national news magazine in the 90's is any guide, there were more men on staff, but an equal number of women working freelance. I hired, I'd say, about half the freelance assignments to women and about half to men. I expected professional and consistent results, and never found the women photographers I worked with to be less driven or ambitious than the men. And there are a lot of women photographers working today. Further, I think the reason more men had those coveted staff positions had a lot to do with the kind of institutional misogyny that pervades so many companies (and online forums) displayed here. I mean, look at this thread, we've had bad jokes, and people demeaning the type of photography that many women choose to do as being some kind of "chickening" out. These attitudes pervade almost every aspect in the field of photography.
Originally Posted by chriscrawfordphoto
In the years since I was working at a magazine, things have become harder for anyone (men and women) to make a living at photography. I don't think it's a lack of drive or discipline, but the economics of the marketplace being flooded with photographs, and I'm sure there are still many editors and curators whose dim (though misguided) views of women make it harder for women to succeed in this field. And of course, we all have our own personal choices to make regarding our responsibilities with our families... I'd think just as many men would give up the stress of the freelance life for a steady paycheck when he's responsible for a couple of kids... it's not an easy road for a photographer to support a family, and that's not just a problem for women.
and to the OP, I'd suggest he start going to photography shows as opposed to camera shows, then he'll see a lot of women who are actively engaged in the field of photography.
Originally Posted by David Lyga