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Thread: For Men Only

  1. #81
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    First, I agree with everything Sly and Suzanne have said. And I have a nearly 3-year-old who does his best to keep me from getting any photography done.

    As far as this:
    How many of those students stayed involved in photography after graduating or leaving school? As I mentioned, exactly ONE of the women in my college photo classes stuck with it after graduating. ONE. Out of 14 or 15. Out of the 10 men in the program, 6 are still doing photography. Four of us are fulltime pros. So is the one woman.
    My classes were not part of any degree program. Everyone in the class was there to learn more about using the darkroom and to get better as a photographer/printer.

    I also offer one huge reason why many believe women have little interest in learning the technical aspects - from an early age in school, girls are usually pushed towards the house stuff and boys are pushed towards the scientific and outside stuff. Studies have shown that this leads towards both sexes believing that girls don't understand the technical parts as well (just read an article yesterday, in fact). In school, boys are usually the ones who speak up, not the girls. Girls are taught to be quiet and listen. Boys are taught that being raucous is fine. Women who are used to being around groups of men can usually dish it out as well as take it, and will stand up for themselves (as we're seeing here). Just because you think women are shying away from the technical stuff by not posting relentlessly about it, doesn't mean we don't like the technical part. More women do need to be pushed towards science in school - any of you with girls had better be thinking about this, too. It takes overcoming a social bias, though. And apparently a world-wide one.

    I'll agree that part of why you don't see many women in photography forums online is because of many of these attitudes from guys. But I do see 40-50% of local photo clubs being women. In person, the attitude doesn't come through as much. On the web, the anonymity lets the misogynistic attitudes come out. Also, I've read several posts here from guys who seem to be letting their wife do the cooking, cleaning and kid wrangling so they can do the photography. I know I'm doing all of that (plus 3 dogs and sometimes a deployed husband).

  2. #82
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    This thread is telling and potent and revealing. I have confirmed a lot here. Regard this:

    Originally Posted by Alan W
    "And yet all but 2 or 3 comments on this thread are from men.David's original question hasn't been fully answered."

    First, my TITLE was geared to guarantee much 'looking' at what I had written. I did not want my post to be buried and insignificant. This thread is more important than the mere demographic aspect and this thread has so far proved that that assessment is all too correct. WHY?

    There has been, with some, a mild inference that I just could be 'sexist' and even misogynist for having dared pose the question. The defense mechanisms are alive and well with us.

    SuzanneR, the moderator, is correct when she says that there is a decided difference between photography shows and camera shows. Point well made, my dear, and I learned something from that, along with many other affirmations as to the predominance of the female sex at classes that teach photography. But, SuzanneR, I also sensed a bit of distress that I have not already SEEN (or perceived) that dichotomy and I did feel that, in your view, I fell handily into the category of being a "typical, insensitive male".

    Is SuzanneR biased? Not particularly. She is evincing what most (male and female) are thinking about in today's politically correct environment by seeking, always, to uncloak a vestige of prejudice that must be 'outed' and dissected for benefit of public scrutiny. She is rather innocent but reflects a society whereby we have become afraid to offer our true thoughts for fear of ignominy.

    Some have a hard time admitting the FACT that men are more prone to like gadgets more than women do. Yet, some see this vocal affirmation as proof that women are being 'put down'. My opinion was, and remains, that since the age of chivalry was assassinated by women's liberation we should welcome women as equals and support their rights on a level playing field; but a playing field that ALSO removes the previous advantages that 'made up' for their inequality in the past. Some are compelled to see that advice as improper paradigm and feel that the 'advantage' should remain (just like the Bush tax cuts for the ultra-rich!). But some see it as sexist.

    One thing is for certain: this thread is causing inner feelings to foment and emerge into a formidable topic that seems to have less and less to do with my original, rather innocent query. - David Lyga
    Last edited by David Lyga; 01-05-2013 at 10:10 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #83
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    I think it's because women are too smart to chase "magic bullets"...

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    Point well made, my dear,
    is that meant to be taken ironically?
    (It could be taken as patronising)

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    This thread is telling and potent and revealing. I have confirmed a lot here. Regard this:

    Originally Posted by Alan W
    "And yet all but 2 or 3 comments on this thread are from men.David's original question hasn't been fully answered."

    First, my TITLE was geared to guarantee much 'looking' at what I had written. I did not want my post to be buried and insignificant. This thread is more important than the mere demographic aspect and this thread has so far proved that that assessment is all too correct. WHY?

    There has been, with some, a mild inference that I just could be 'sexist' and even misogynist for having dared pose the question. The defense mechanisms are alive and well with us.

    SuzanneR, the moderator, is correct when she says that there is a decided difference between photography shows and camera shows. Point well made, my dear, and I learned something from that, along with many other affirmations as to the predominance of the female sex at classes that teach photography. But, SuzanneR, I also sensed a bit of distress that I have not already SEEN (or perceived) that dichotomy and I did feel that, in your view, I fell handily into the category of being a "typical, insensitive male".

    Is SuzanneR biased? Not particularly. She is evincing what most (male and female) are thinking about in today's politically correct environment by seeking, always, to uncloak a vestige of prejudice that must be 'outed' and dissected for benefit of public scrutiny. She is rather innocent but reflects a society whereby we have become afraid to offer our true thoughts for fear of ignominy.

    Some have a hard time admitting the FACT that men are more prone to like gadgets more than women do. Yet, some see this affirmation as proof that women are being 'put down'. My opinion was, and remains, that since the age of chivalry has been assassinated by women's liberation we should welcome women as equals and support their rights on a level playing field; but a playing field that ALSO removes the previous advantages that 'made up' for their inequality in the past. Some can see that advice as proper. Some see it as sexist. But one thing is for certain: this thread is causing inner feelings to foment and emerge into a formidable topic that seems to have less and less to do with my original, rather innocent query. - David Lyga
    Just in case you were uncertain about it, you are definitely sexist.

    Your post all but screams, "Can't we go back to those nice days when women knew their place?"

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post

    Is SuzanneR biased? Not particularly. She is evincing what most (male and female) are thinking about in today's politically correct environment by seeking, always, to uncloak a vestige of prejudice that must be 'outed' and dissected for benefit of public scrutiny. She is rather innocent but reflects a society whereby we have become afraid to offer our true thoughts.

    - David Lyga
    I don't mean to suggest one can't offer their true thoughts, but being met with a challenge or disagreement is fair game in a forum such as this. I didn't find your initial post to be demeaning to women, but a few subsequent posts revealed attitudes toward women among some of the participants that are dismissive and demeaning, and I felt the need to challenge and disagree. As a moderator I almost just closed the thread last night because I was tired and annoyed, but I decided against it because it wouldn't have been very fair of me, even if I felt too many were presenting their opinions as facts.

  7. #87
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    No, indeed, I do not want 'women to go back to their place' but I do want the deference toward women to cease and desist. They are equals, period. They are JUST as worthy as being CEOs or Presidents as males. But what is highly disturbing, shutterlight, is that I actually think that you are NOT exposing hatred for me but are being very sincere. This bothers me because I honestly think that what I have written here is fair and just. Am I missing something? What did I say or infer otherwise?

    It would be an ADVANTAGE to have women entering the 'gadget' field. We need MORE to be interested in analog. I offer no denigration; god knows that I have suffered enough in life with daring to be born queer.

    Women, I want you to become a part of us and cannot think of a rational reason why you should be left out. Cannot be more open or sincere than that. - David Lyga

  8. #88
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    Suzanne, I fully understand where you are coming from but my advice to you is to tolerate the dissent. If you do, if you acually persevere, I have a feeling that you will win in the end.

    There is something about human nature where the cream eventually rises to the top. If you force this rise too soon you sully the mixture. If you wait patiently you just might force the more cognizant amonst us to herald the underlying virtue. - David Lyga

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post

    I would be an ADVANTAGE to have women entering the 'gadget' field. We need MORE to be interested in analog. . - David Lyga

    Threads like this, however, don't help to make women feel more welcome. I'm just saying...

  10. #90

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    The deference toward women? Where do you see this "deference" in society? I am interested in hearing about this.

    Women, I want you to become a part of us
    Right there. That is sexist. You are extending a hand from from this "us" out to "women," whoever "women" are. What is this "us" you speak of?

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