Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 71,042   Posts: 1,560,765   Online: 1116
      
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24
  1. #11
    brucemuir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Metro DC area, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,264
    Images
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post


    I just have a general problem with the whole concept of this "story" in the first place, as I don't really see it as documentary. It seems no more journalistic than Richard Avedon's American West series.
    I agree Scott.
    No meat, a cursory examination.

  2. #12
    Diapositivo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    1,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    I don't think that photo is legitimate as it never happened. Re-creating a photo without mentioning it's a re-creation is not right. Legitimate newspapers fire photographers and reporters for doing this. They have strict rules against this.
    In which sense a portrait is re-created? A portrait is a portrait.

    Take the case of the militiaman supposedly portrayed by Robert Capa when he's hit by enemy fire. If the situation is portrayed (re-created) then I understand the claim of dishonesty.

    But in a posed portrait - as this is the case - I don't understand where is the re-creation. Re-creation of what, I mean?

    The picture belongs to a reportage distributed by Magnum, a "portfolio" of images about a certain subject, with some background information. You see this kind of set situations (portraying real situations, but set at the moment of portraying) in any documentary.

    Do you think the eagle really captures the rabbit naturally and the camera happens to be there? The rabbit is probably tied to a rope, it is freed when the eagle is hunting for prey, the scene is taken with favourable light, if the rabbit runs in the wrong direction the action is repeated. But this is not even that case.

    This is the case where you go to a certain place in Albania and in order to illustrate that there is a lot of criminality and people have weapons you ask an Albanian to make a portrait with his Kalashnikov for you.
    I'm sure you have seen many portraits of this kind. It's all very normal in the industry.
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 02-25-2013 at 06:50 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,286
    Images
    21
    I find Pellegrin's response more or less convincing in terms of actual *misconduct*; he messed up just what his subject's military background was and he cops to that, and I don't see that the image and its context would have been changed in a meaningful way without the word "sniper". I don't really have enough insight into normal photojournalistic practice to judge his claim that the background text wasn't intended for publication but got away into an unintended context; it does seem like the two BagNews articles take as a given that Pellegrin was responsible for its inclusion in the POY article and don't really consider the possibility that someone else screwed up in this respect (and whether Pellegrin passed up opportunities to correct the mistakes, and so on).

    But I think there's room for a reasonable debate about the quality of the reportage: If a photojournalist poses a portrait, accurately represented as to its content (which we know the "sniper" picture isn't quite; but leaving that aside), without an explicit "this image was staged" disclaimer but with a clearly posed composition, and positions it in a way that exaggerates its connection to the theme of the greater story, is that legitimate artistic license or is it a kind of implicit falsehood? The history of arguments about photojournalism make it clear that that question is hard to answer in specific cases, and probably impossible to answer in general without recourse to extreme prohibitions like "no posed portraiture".

    Finally, I don't actually think the picture is all that great, though obviously that's significantly a matter of taste. The one of the police officers searching the house (shown in the second BagNews article) strikes me as a much stronger image.

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    University of Arkansas, Fayetteville
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    595
    If it is staged to that extent then it is called a photo-illustration instead of a photograph. A photograph implies that it was actual event when it comes to news. Here is the NPPA code of ethics. This is what I have agreed to as a member and as a photojournalist.


    CODE OF ETHICS

    Visual journalists and those who manage visual news productions are accountable for upholding the following standards in their daily work:

    Be accurate and comprehensive in the representation of subjects.

    Resist being manipulated by staged photo opportunities.

    Be complete and provide context when photographing or recording subjects. Avoid stereotyping individuals and groups. Recognize and work to avoid presenting one's own biases in the work.

    Treat all subjects with respect and dignity. Give special consideration to vulnerable subjects and compassion to victims of crime or tragedy. Intrude on private moments of grief only when the public has an overriding and justifiable need to see.

    While photographing subjects do not intentionally contribute to, alter, or seek to alter or influence events.

    Editing should maintain the integrity of the photographic images' content and context. Do not manipulate images or add or alter sound in any way that can mislead viewers or misrepresent subjects.

    Do not pay sources or subjects or reward them materially for information or participation.

    Do not accept gifts, favors, or compensation from those who might seek to influence coverage.

    Do not intentionally sabotage the efforts of other journalists.

    Ideally, visual journalists should:

    Strive to ensure that the public's business is conducted in public. Defend the rights of access for all journalists.

    Think proactively, as a student of psychology, sociology, politics and art to develop a unique vision and presentation. Work with a voracious appetite for current events and contemporary visual media.

    Strive for total and unrestricted access to subjects, recommend alternatives to shallow or rushed opportunities, seek a diversity of viewpoints, and work to show unpopular or unnoticed points of view.

    Avoid political, civic and business involvements or other employment that compromise or give the appearance of compromising one's own journalistic independence.

    Strive to be unobtrusive and humble in dealing with subjects.
    Respect the integrity of the photographic moment.

    Strive by example and influence to maintain the spirit and high standards expressed in this code. When confronted with situations in which the proper action is not clear, seek the counsel of those who exhibit the highest standards of the profession. Visual journalists should continuously study their craft and the ethics that guide it.
    Bachelor of Fine Arts and Bachelor of Arts: Journalism - University of Arkansas 2014

    Canon A-1, Canon AE-1, Canon Canonet GIII 17, Argus 21, Rolleicord Va, Mamiya RB67, Voigtländer Bessa

    http://darkroom317.deviantart.com/

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,286
    Images
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkroom317 View Post
    If it is staged to that extent then it is called a photo-illustration instead of a photograph. A photograph implies that it was actual event when it comes to news. Here is the NPPA code of ethics. This is what I have agreed to as a member and as a photojournalist.


    CODE OF ETHICS
    (snip -NT)
    What do you see as having been violated in that code here? I think everyone agrees that "sniper" was a mistake and in that sense a violation of "be accurate", but if we accept Pellegrin's mea culpa on that point, are there other crossed lines?

    You say "staged to that extent", but to me this photo doesn't seem more staged than any other posed portrait. Its placement in the photo essay creates a context that may be misleading as a whole, to be sure, but I don't immediately see that the staging is the problem, or that the photo itself claims to be anything it's not. What's unusual about having a subject pose with a possession that's salient to the story?

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,286
    Images
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by batwister View Post
    The subject's beef is that it hurts his 'integrity' - he hasn't lost his job - I'd argue he'll probably make some new friends because of it. And possibly money...
    No, I think it's pretty significant given US military culture. If the caption results in people thinking that he misrepresented his military service, to a lot of people that's a *huge* black mark---in my experience many veterans (perhaps Marines especially) are enormously personally vested in their service, and take such misrepresentations as not just serious but something of an affront to them and the armed forces generally. I wouldn't want to be this guy the first time another Marine says "aren't you that dude who lied about being a sniper?"

    I tend to buy Pellegrin's claim that it was a mistake rather than an intentional fiction, but it's a significant mistake anyway.

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    University of Arkansas, Fayetteville
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    595
    He was not in the claimed location nor was he a sniper. These things don't greatly effect the interpretation of the image but they do matter and are in fact inaccurate. But of course who really cares about accuracy today. Everyone is too busy watching reality tv.
    Bachelor of Fine Arts and Bachelor of Arts: Journalism - University of Arkansas 2014

    Canon A-1, Canon AE-1, Canon Canonet GIII 17, Argus 21, Rolleicord Va, Mamiya RB67, Voigtländer Bessa

    http://darkroom317.deviantart.com/

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    University of Arkansas, Fayetteville
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    595
    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    No, I think it's pretty significant given US military culture. If the caption results in people thinking that he misrepresented his military service, to a lot of people that's a *huge* black mark---in my experience many veterans (perhaps Marines especially) are enormously personally vested in their service, and take such misrepresentations as not just serious but something of an affront to them and the armed forces generally. I wouldn't want to be this guy the first time another Marine says "aren't you that dude who lied about being a sniper?"

    I tend to buy Pellegrin's claim that it was a mistake rather than an intentional fiction, but it's a significant mistake anyway.

    -NT


    I have had issues with our news desk creating a headline that has nothing to do with the image because they didn't read my cutline and just made an assumption. I have also on occasion misspelled names. So, sorts of things happen. I don't really know how Magnum operates so I am not sure if something like this could have happened.
    Bachelor of Fine Arts and Bachelor of Arts: Journalism - University of Arkansas 2014

    Canon A-1, Canon AE-1, Canon Canonet GIII 17, Argus 21, Rolleicord Va, Mamiya RB67, Voigtländer Bessa

    http://darkroom317.deviantart.com/

  9. #19
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Washington DC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    8,432
    Blog Entries
    51
    Images
    439
    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    No, I think it's pretty significant given US military culture. If the caption results in people thinking that he misrepresented his military service, to a lot of people that's a *huge* black mark---in my experience many veterans (perhaps Marines especially) are enormously personally vested in their service, and take such misrepresentations as not just serious but something of an affront to them and the armed forces generally. I wouldn't want to be this guy the first time another Marine says "aren't you that dude who lied about being a sniper?"

    I tend to buy Pellegrin's claim that it was a mistake rather than an intentional fiction, but it's a significant mistake anyway.

    -NT
    Ditto. I've worked with Marines before, and to them, ANY alteration of your rank or job description is an affront. To a civilian, the difference between lance corporal and corporal might well seem insignificant, and not a big deal to shorten Lance Corporal down to just Corporal for convenience sake, but if you do that you just gave someone an unearned promotion, and a significant one as a Marine, as it entitles you to wear the blood stripe on your dress blues. Mis-stating your MOS, especially to a Marine, is up there with claiming you received the Medal of Honor when in fact you got a General Discharge. Oddly enough, though, it's not that big a deal to shorten Lieutenant Colonel to Colonel.

    I think the big problem with the image, semantic/semiotic differences aside, is that IMHO it fails in its original mission - it says nothing to me about gun violence, or Rochester. It would be meaningful as an illustration if it were of someone who had used a gun to successfully defend their home from a burglar on crack, or someone who trained suburban housewives to handle Smith & Wessons, or if it somehow depicted the collection of weapons the subject owned. But a guy holding a gun in his garage is otherwise a very ordinary image and doesn't make any kind of statement beyond "this individual happens to own a shotgun". It's just a general fail in its mission. That photo could be taken ANYWHERE in America - it doesn't say anything about Rochester. It says a lot about "journalism" that someone feels they can swoop in to a place they know nothing about and have no connection to, apply an agenda (in this case a statement about gun violence in Rochester), and come up with meaningful images that can inform me (or anyone else completely unfamiliar with the story) about the reality of the time, place and event being documented. Far better would have been to stalk the ER at the hospital and get photos of someone being brought in to the ER with a gunshot wound.

  10. #20
    Diapositivo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    1,844
    Being a "sniper" if I get it right is not a rank. It can be a job description but what was the real job description of the person in a past job is irrelevant for most people in the world. The caption would have been incorrect if the person portrayed actually was a Marine. A sniper would have a different weapon than a "non sniper", perhaps a different uniform, some marks indicating his speciality etc. and the caption would have been wrong. The qualification of "sniper" refers to the former activity of the person. I think the image would have worked, in a sense, much better if the caption had said the person was a former milkman. A former soldier would have a higher inclination to keep a rifle at home than a milkman.

    The portrait is - I suppose - somehow necessary in a reportage to make the product more complete. A reportage "tells a story" and has to have a variety of images. Some of them "dramatic" (the action caught in the moment) and some "background filler". In the case of Rochester, abandoned Kodak structures or derelict houses might tell a story about a town in crisis which in turn gives a background information about the rise in criminality. The derelict house or the abandoned warehouse can be anywhere in the world, but constitute a normal "background" image for a reportage.

    What surprises me, in general, is why a portrait gets so much attention - I mean before all the fuss.

    The "Afghan girl" by Steve McCurry is a portrait in an interior. Isn't that "posed" as well? It's a portrait being part of a reportage.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin