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  1. #161
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    Their just Wannabes
    Yeah I know.

    Probably should have picked somebody famous like Frida Kahlo

    Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Rowell

    Maybe a National Geographic photographer like http://photography.nationalgeographi...?source=A-to-Z
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  2. #162
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Hmm...

    Methinks the "new cadre of vocal contributors" has managed to run the OP off from his own thread.

    Or maybe he's just taking a breather? Or gasping for air?

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    Some of the greatest breakers of tradition in art were highly schooled in the traditions of art before they decided to break them - look at early Picasso paintings for example. Or early Renoirs, or early ....
    Noone lives in a vacuum, and of course everyone - like it or not - are influenced to some degree by those who came before, and as I stated, while some ideas can only come to those who have a fresh mind, true innovation often comes from those who can both understand history, traditions, contemporary and the avant garde.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    You've got to know the rules and conventions before you can break them successfully - otherwise you're just floundering around.
    Innovation rarely - if ever - comes by breaking rules. It comes from exploring your subject, thoughts or ideas in a way that has never happened before.

    Picasso's cubism wasn't invented to break rules, it was created to expand in the ideas of perspective to take the viewer furtherin to the subject through exploring several angles and points of view simultaneously.

    Duchamp's readymades and Malevich's black square were not made to break the rules of what art is, but rather to explore what art can be and if and where the limits are.

    Now, of course neither of those works of art and the advancement of the arts they contributed would have been possible without a certain understanding of the (then) contemporary art, but wether they studied early art history or not (I don't know), doesn't seem very relevant. They did know and fully understand the contemporary, and that seems way more relevant for their inventions.

    Now, when it comes to photography, one problem, I think, is that since the history is so short, traditions are in a way held more important.

    There is a lot of new and exciting photography being made today from artists who rather look to other art forms than early masters of photography, but as we photographers and lovers of great photography tend to be quite conservative, a lot of us tend to dismiss things that we can not trace back directly to the great old masters.

    In this regard, I think the analog/digital shift can be quite healthy for photography. As the young digital artists of today have the opportunity to easier look to other art forms for inspiration than early photography, with all the crap that is produced, some good and innovative ideas will emerge.

    I think that is well needed in the world of photography.

  4. #164
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannbro View Post
    Innovation rarely - if ever - comes by breaking rules.
    Tell that to Steve Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by mannbro View Post
    Picasso's cubism wasn't invented to break rules, it was created to expand in the ideas of perspective to take the viewer furtherin to the subject through exploring several angles and points of view simultaneously.

    Duchamp's readymades and Malevich's black square were not made to break the rules of what art is, but rather to explore what art can be and if and where the limits are.
    I don't know about Duchamp and Malevich but I do know Picasso was an academic painter, trained in a formal art school setting, and as such he would have had art history even if only indirectly. And Cubism was certainly a rejection of contemporary standards and rules - it may have been an exploration of seeing multiple planes in a flat 2-dimensional representation, but that in itself is a wholesale break from the past where realism was a requirement, as was the shifting color palette that ran equally unrealistic.

    The same was true of Impressionism - it marked a wholesale break from academic painting in that it represented the real world, not heroic ideals, and it represented it as the artists FELT it, not as the camera would see it.

    Now, of course neither of those works of art and the advancement of the arts they contributed would have been possible without a certain understanding of the (then) contemporary art, but wether they studied early art history or not (I don't know), doesn't seem very relevant. They did know and fully understand the contemporary, and that seems way more relevant for their inventions.

    Now, when it comes to photography, one problem, I think, is that since the history is so short, traditions are in a way held more important.

    There is a lot of new and exciting photography being made today from artists who rather look to other art forms than early masters of photography, but as we photographers and lovers of great photography tend to be quite conservative, a lot of us tend to dismiss things that we can not trace back directly to the great old masters.

    In this regard, I think the analog/digital shift can be quite healthy for photography. As the young digital artists of today have the opportunity to easier look to other art forms for inspiration than early photography, with all the crap that is produced, some good and innovative ideas will emerge.

    I think that is well needed in the world of photography.
    I agree in general, although I think we're at a watershed moment where "photography" is actually disappearing, or at least breaking off into photography and a new, as-yet-defined medium. Digital art may begin from photographs, but it goes so far beyond the photograph I think it's a disservice to both to keep calling it photography. Good for the art world? Certainly. Good for photography? yet to be determined.

  5. #165
    Slixtiesix's Avatar
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    By they way, I don´t know about the anglo-saxon world, but we in Germany distinguish between "photography" and "photographic art", with all these works created with the help of heavy photoshop or other software treatment falling into the latter category. Is there such a differentiation in the US?

  6. #166
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian C. Miller View Post
    What the artist needs to do is stay on the bus and see where it goes. The bus will diverge from the other routes, and go somewhere unique. The photographer needs to figure out what they want to photograph, and stick with it.
    I'm a big fan of mass transit but only when it can take me where I want to go.

    The problem I see in your argument is that it is content/craft centric rather than expression/art centric.

    Henri Cartier-Bresson was already expressing himself when photography came into his life in earnest, he was already a trained artist, a big part of his motivation to use photography was to be able to "instantly draw a picture", his idea paraphrased by me. HCB switched buses, to use your metaphore, to using a camera because it meant he could automate his work, the camera was just a tool to make drawings with and it even allowed him to hire out the printing process. He already knew where he wanted to go.

    Adams fell in love with Yosemite and the outdoors first, then photography gave him a way to share it.

    Much too often photography and movements/schools within photography (and other crafts/skill sets), like pictorialism and west coast styles and Lith and Wet Pkate, simply become answers looking for a questions, tools looking for jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian C. Miller View Post
    While Adams is known for dramatic 0.8 ratio pictures of nature, that's not the only thing he photographed, or the only type of camera he used. I saw a YouTube video where he packed a lot of cameras into his truck, and among them was a panoramic camera. I have never seen any prints from that! So how does Adams break from his own tradition?

    That's another thing that drives me nuts, is that everybody has to find something to be "known for." You have to have a rut. You may not move out of that rut. And what is a rut? A very long grave.
    The magic of Adams and the f/64 community was in marketing.

    Business thrives on repeating things over and over, most galleries I have ever seen find a type of subject that works and stick with it, because that is what their clients come to expect. Artists do the same thing, they dig their own ruts. Makes life easy and keeps food on the table.

    f/64 did this to themselves, they defined a common style so that the members could get more gallery showings. It is spelled out in their manifesto. That common style allowed galleries to rotate between all the f/64 artists while maintaining a very specific style. In short it made gallery marketing easier.

    That business model became f/64's rut.
    Last edited by markbarendt; 03-16-2013 at 11:21 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  7. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by mannbro View Post
    Picasso's cubism wasn't invented to break rules, it was created to expand in the ideas of perspective to take the viewer furtherin to the subject through exploring several angles and points of view simultaneously.
    picasso didn't invent cubism at all.
    others were similar things before ... he made it famous

    what these people you mention did was stand outside convention, you are right they didn't break rules
    they created new rules because the rules that existed did not relate to what they were doing.

  8. #168
    PhotoJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slixtiesix View Post
    By they way, I don´t know about the anglo-saxon world, but we in Germany distinguish between "photography" and "photographic art", with all these works created with the help of heavy photoshop or other software treatment falling into the latter category. Is there such a differentiation in the US?
    "Photography" and "imaging" - that's the terminology I use. Popular Photography magazine has retitled itself, in the past few years, the world's most popular "imaging" magazine so I think I have some precedent.
    Jim MacKenzie - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

    A bunch of Nikons; Feds, Zorkis and a Kiev; Pentax 67-II (inherited from my deceased father-in-law); Bronica SQ-A; and a nice Shen Hao 4x5 field camera with 3 decent lenses that needs to be taken outside more. Oh, and as of mid-2012, one of those bodies we don't talk about here.

    Favourite film: do I need to pick only one?

  9. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    picasso didn't invent cubism at all.
    others were similar things before ... he made it famous
    Actually, he did invent cubism. Les Demoiselles d'Avignon was the precursor, and from there he explored it further. If I remember correctly, it was Gertrud Stein who came up with the name in 1909. While Braque also was a pioneeer in the field and probably influenced the development quite a bit, Picasso was, I am quite certain, the first.

  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Business thrives on repeating things over and over, most galleries I have ever seen find a type of subject that works and stick with it, because that is what their clients come to expect. Artists do the same thing, they dig their own ruts. Makes life easy and keeps food on the table.
    I don't think they should be called ruts but styles. It's the same thing for other arts, especially music. If your favorite performer had been doing flemenco guitar for two decades and then all of the sudden plugged a Strat into a 8 foot tall amp and hit the whammy bar like he was swatting a fly, I would hazard a guess that many if not most would not be happy about it.

    When a person's subconscious sensibility can come to rely on getting another fix, it's both soothing and invigorating at the same time, so they like to count on it. I love trying new things in some areas but like certain things to stay somewhat the same in others, it's human nature.

    What digital has done by function of marketing hype and the sheer nature of having a tool belt with not 8-12 expected tools but thousands of "options" is dilute a sense of attaining a style by not having limits to what one can actually do with said tools. This has resulted in very weak styles that never seem to settle on a look at a personal level. The curato of a show I am in said this exact same thing of her own work in that at some point, she knows she needs to stop dabbling and stick with what resonates with her. Although one can use self control to employ the use of digital to attain said styles as there is clearly evidence of that ( Mark Tucker ), most of what is out there is all over the map visually speaking because of having thousands of tools on that belt rather than a dozen and companies like Adobe, etc. love it.

    If you are stuck in a style that is not working for you, it is a rut. But if it works for your deepest most subconscious response, it's not your rut but your niche.

    But the bottom line is that people still do care and the ones who do not now never really did in the first place. Tha actual problem is web born perceptions and hype in the form of "Trending Now" that spread pure crap faster than a speeding loaf of you know what. Even the most intelligent of people would rather regurgitate the loaf of hype than think for them selves and find out what the truth is.

    I only have really learned about the art world after moving to a town that places an enormous value on it and have taken my self more seriously as a creator of art, so I know who the masters of the pre-digital age are....I care.

    You can not, however, force someone who does not care to suddenly do so, it will take life's simple twists and turns to do that.
    Last edited by PKM-25; 03-16-2013 at 01:13 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "I'm the freak that shoots film. God bless the freaks!" ~ Mainecoonmaniac ~



 

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