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  1. #51
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinesh View Post
    Was that your thought process during this thread?

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum41/1...-printing.html
    No, before.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  2. #52

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    i guess the only way to get ahead in life is to lie one's butt off, get jobs you aren't qualified for
    and leave a trail of broken dreams .... frank was just lucky to be competent, and to be working
    with one of the recognized leaders of the american architectural movement ...

    ====

    jim:
    i have always been told i should NEVER say i can't do something if a client or potential client asks ...
    "get the job first, figure out how to do it later ... "

  3. #53

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    Seems like the a**hole population is growing exponentially too.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3 View Post
    I work for a consulting firm and was recently on a conference with a client and one of my colleagues. The client asked me a question and I said that I wasn't sure and that I'd find out for him. After we rang off the colleague said that I should never admit that I don't know something. I'm supposed to be the expert.

    It has, however, been my experience (I'm 25 years older than this guy) that the customer will respect you far more in the end if you admit you don't know something than if you BS your way through an answer.
    Exactly. If someone tells me that he or she doesn't know but will find out — I trust the answer he or she eventually brings to me and think no less of him/her. This can apply to anything. This can apply to "do you have any lemonade?" as well as "do you think it's benign?"

    If someone tells me an answer and it turns out to be wrong — and that wrong information was used to influence my decisions — the person has permanently lost credibility with me. I make the assumption that everyone I deal with feels the same way. Consequently, if I don't know something, I just say so.

    A theme that seems to keep cropping up is that people from this "second lost generation" which is really just behind my own generation, seem to be the greatest offenders. They carve their way forward on the bullshi*er's ethic. I assume it's related to technology, the ability to edit video from the crib, etcetera.

    So, anyway, the people (from any generation, perhaps the very same) who choose to cultivate genuine talent and experience — who choose not to misrepresent themselves, not to market themselves falsely — who choose to say I don't know and do not portend experience they don't have, etcetera — those people will be overlooked in a society that values pretension. The pretenders will steal opportunities and they will be allowed to because the opportunity-givers are pretenders, too.

    The worst effect is that the value of the artwork, of bonafide expression, will inevitably erode. The canon will be diluted by a bunch of people who spent their time faking it, instead of ACTUALLY making it.

    And if the trend continues, it seems that eventually nobody will even know the difference between a liar and the real thing. Bullsh***ers will become the real thing; the bullsh***er's ethic will prevail.

    And anyway, this story just plays out into something like Brave New World, perhaps. Something austere and unnatural.

    Sorry I couldn't be more cheerful!

    EDIT: kind of reminds me of the Howard Rourke versus Peter Keating dynamic in The Fountainhead, come to think of it.

  5. #55
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pstake View Post
    Exactly. If someone tells me that he or she doesn't know but will find out — I trust the answer he or she eventually brings to me and think no less of him/her. This can apply to anything. This can apply to "do you have any lemonade?" as well as "do you think it's benign?"

    If someone tells me an answer and it turns out to be wrong — and that wrong information was used to influence my decisions — the person has permanently lost credibility with me. I make the assumption that everyone I deal with feels the same way. Consequently, if I don't know something, I just say so.

    A theme that seems to keep cropping up is that people from this "second lost generation" which is really just behind my own generation, seem to be the greatest offenders. They carve their way forward on the bullshi*er's ethic. I assume it's related to technology, the ability to edit video from the crib, etcetera.

    So, anyway, the people (from any generation, perhaps the very same) who choose to cultivate genuine talent and experience — who choose not to misrepresent themselves, not to market themselves falsely — who choose to say I don't know and do not portend experience they don't have, etcetera — those people will be overlooked in a society that values pretension. The pretenders will steal opportunities and they will be allowed to because the opportunity-givers are pretenders, too.

    The worst effect is that the value of the artwork, of bonafide expression, will inevitably erode. The canon will be diluted by a bunch of people who spent their time faking it, instead of ACTUALLY making it.

    And if the trend continues, it seems that eventually nobody will even know the difference between a liar and the real thing. Bullsh***ers will become the real thing; the bullsh***er's ethic will prevail.

    And anyway, this story just plays out into something like Brave New World, perhaps. Something austere and unnatural.

    Sorry I couldn't be more cheerful!

    EDIT: kind of reminds me of the Howard Rourke versus Peter Keating dynamic in The Fountainhead, come to think of it.
    Well put and totally agree.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  6. #56
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    I seem to have noticed this increase start about 15 years ago. Perhaps this is just evident in the UK.
    I think you were not paying close attention until 15 years ago
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  7. #57
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    I'm not sure about the overall world becoming rife with BSers, but I wouldn't doubt it. 10-15 years ago, we had an evidence tech at the lab who would happily answer questions from the submitting officers about the testing of the evidence. She did it because she thought she was saving us (the chemists) time. Or that was what she said (I think she wanted to feel like she was almost like "CSI" and knew things they didn't). Problem, of course, was that she based her answers on the 5 % of info she actually had on the subject. The other 95% is pretty important in forensics. I can't count the number of times I had to run out of the building to chase down a guy and give him the right info or call afterwards and set someone straight. In several cases, it caused a real delay in analyzing the evidence. And it almost always made the lab look bad because the officer had gotten bad info from someone there. They didn't really understand that the evidence techs were just HS grads who had a relative in the state police.
    And we were always taught to say "I don't know" when asked a question that we didn't know the answer to. Especially in court.
    I also once had a co-worker call me in the middle of the night to ask how to do a certain test because a judge had just signed a court order saying we had to do that test on a suspect at a scene (not sure if it had been the judge's idea or an attorney's). The test was one that had been ruled inadmissible in court before I was born. So much fun telling a judge he can't order us to do a test that he can't allow in court (and that we didn't have the materials to conduct).

  8. #58
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    I agree that things are bad in this respect, but I don't know if it's any worse than when I was young. However, I believe it has become easier for people like this to find their way into positions where they are taken seriously.

    Ironically, I remember reading a Platonic Dialogue that was in many ways similar to this thread.
    Truzi

  9. #59
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    Explosion of Bullshiters

    The Internet (Google et al) has made it very easy to clothe oneself in a veneer of knowledge, so that it looks legitimate. However, scratch the surface and the truth soon becomes apparent.

    I had an applicant in my office one day, who when asked about the best idea he ever had, launched into his presentation on how he was about to invent a perpetual motion machine. As the position required a little physics knowledge, it was entertaining to say the least.

    He did not get the job.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambaker View Post

    He did not get the job.
    He keeps trying that, he'll be in perpetual motion from one interview to the next.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.



 

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