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  1. #21

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    I can make that distinction for you, David. if I was offered a lens and it worked fine I pay "the going rate" for it. If I was offered a lens and it worked fine but internal damage was disclosed, I pay 50% of the going rate for it. If I bought a lens that didn't work fine (or as advertized), then I'd demand a 100% refund. If I bought a lens that worked fine but later discovered hidden damage that was not disclosed, I'd not only demand a 100% refund; but I'd make it know far and wide that a disreputable transaction happened. If I bought a lens that worked fine but never discovered hidden damage that was not disclosed, then we all sleep well at night... or do we?

    Does that help claify this ethical dilemna?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    But 'factors NOT affecting functionality' are not on a par with the ones that DO affect functionality ...
    The difference is that functionality can be assessed by a buyer. Known but hidden damage - or the future impacts of that damage - cannot be readily assessed by the buyer if it is not disclosed.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    ... and those other factors must be admitted to be subordinate in importance but, admittedly, are not without any importance, per se.
    Perhaps in your value system. Most people may not share the parsing of honesty to quite that fine of a level. I tend to be binary: a person is either basically honest or not; anmd a business transaction is either honest or not. Yet, I allow for human indiscretion and human failings and human sinning. Odd... isn't it? But too much of that (including too much talk about the difference between honest behavior and dishonesty) tends to make me wonder why the uncertainty exists.

  4. #24
    Truzi's Avatar
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    I would disclose what was done (and why), as well as offer the original parts if wanted. That is how I'd want to be treated as well.
    The only other BBS I spent a lot of time on was for old Buicks, and numbers-matching was a big issue for some people, regardless of condition. I don't know if most camera buyers/collectors are that enthusiastic.

    Even if it works as advertised, I'd want to know if the camera/lens was opened up (even for factory service). A coworker bought a FED on ebay. The lens was a bit out of focus, so he disassembled it and found signs the seller had tried to adjust it himself. He really would have wanted to know before the sale.

    Finally, I had my 35mm with stuck shutter and light leak "serviced" by a pro-shop that advertises camera repair. After three tries they did not fix it (I figured it out myself). They did replace the back, but I suspect they did not replace the shutter as claimed - which is good for me. You see, I inherited the camera from my Maternal Grandfather, and it has a lot of sentimental value; there is the whole Theseus' ship issue for me.
    Truzi

  5. #25

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    I had a recent purchase go bad, but the seller quickly refunded everything and said to keep the camera. I determined that the camera's lens was usable, so I sent the seller some cash for it.

    Ultimately what matters most to us, in our on little micro-universes, is all that matters. If you want to make a sale then your focus, and justification, are focused on that. In some micro-universes the sale is secondary; sleeping well that night is the primary goal.
    In life you only get one great dog, one great car, and one great woman. Pet the dog. Drive the car. Make love to the woman. Don't mix them up.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    OK Brian, I at least partially agree with you. After all, it IS 'damage'. But you seem to make absolutely no distinction as to whether fuctionality is affected or not. I think (and MOST think) that THAT factor is the MOST important. The other factor is certainly not deemed to be trivial, I agree, but functionality is the main point here.

    But 'factors NOT affecting functionality' are not on a par with the ones that DO affect functionality (although you DO make sense and I do not completely disagree with you) and those other factors must be admitted to be subordinate in importance but, admittedly, are not without any importance, per se. - David Lyga
    While functionality is the most important issue, if it is damage that does not affect it, why are you so set on hiding it?
    A politician is a man who will double cross that bridge when he comes to it.

    Oscar Levant

  7. #27

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    david

    why don't you just sell something as is,
    describe its condition, honestly
    show photographs that show the condition
    and pay for a CLA rather than doing it yourself
    and potentially damaging the camera
    instead of selling something, and then before it is
    shipped, doing some sort of change and self-repair.

  8. #28
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I would, as a matter of policy, disclose everything I knew.

    Lenses are precision optics, until you take them apart. When you took it apart and put it back together again did a piece of dust or sand get on the ring the lens element rests on? Did you verify the lens on an optical bench after reassembly? There are people who would wonder about that. I bought a 35mm Zuiko where the retaining ring was loose and I reseated the lens and tightened... But every time I use that lens and get disappointing pictures back from it I feel like there might be something wrong with it. I rarely use it because of that. If I sold it I would disclose that.

    I once sold (tried to sell) a few things on an auction site. Here's a typical example of what I did. I disclosed defects with circles and arrows...



    I have a TLR where the shutter release lever was stuck and I broke it one day. I replaced it with a hand-fashioned lever made out of brass. Works just fine. If you didn't know it you would think it was factory spec. But I know... It's a little soft. If you force it it will bend. Then it will have a little less travel. Then you take it apart and ask "who was in here????"

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinesh View Post
    Does it really matter what YOU would "rather"? You're the seller, not the buyer.

    I fully agree with this. Especially on APUG, this is enthusiast selling enthusiast an object our desire/interest. We care about these stuff. I'd rather know everything the seller know about the equipment. I am very appreciative and give high credit to sellers who lists even a minute problem/defect/what-he-knows about the gear he/she is selling, even if he thinks it won't affect anything. LET me be the judge of what the alleged defect means to me.....
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  10. #30
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    p.s. That Rollei 35 didn't sell for $60 so I kept it and still use it. I replaced the rail with a painted black, hand-fashioned piece of brass and adjusted the meter for Alkaline.

    Not to belabor a point but just to re-live the memories those sales brought back... From that earlier failed attempt to sell, I changed my tactic and decided $1 minimum, free shipping was the way to go...

    Fully disclosed oil damage on lens for an otherwise excellent Olymus 6, think I made $60 - positive feedback...



    Strange extension cord/box sent to Japan for free shipping $15 - buyer was surprised I still honored the free shipping. I still imagine it living a new life in a room with rice paper windows...



    And the big surprise, funky mahjong sold for over $500 with broken box...




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