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  1. #31
    zsas's Avatar
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    I caution that thinking that newby's all need to be classically trained is nice; however, some of the greats were dropouts or created with minimal tools with less than traditional paths to success (Sadie Benning, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs).....
    Andy

  2. #32
    jnanian's Avatar
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    from what i understand borax can be replace sodium metaborate in some formulas even though it is sodium tetaborate
    ( in d-23 for example ) and i think ( correct me if i am wrong ) the film developing cookbook says this ..

    i don't think there is any harm using grocery / healthfood store bought ingredients if they are nearly the same as
    "photography grade"
    i purchased a bunch of sodium carbonate at a pharmacy and i never saw a difference between what i paid 40$ for
    and what i would have purchase at a grocery store for less than 50¢. ( if i knew i could buy sodium bicarbonate and evaporate the moisture out of it
    and covert it to sodium carbonate, i would have done this and purchased THAT at a grocery store and saved myself 39.50$ )
    not sure if there is a huge difference between grades of ascorbic acid either and i usually buy 1lb for about $6 instead of scientific grade.

  3. #33

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    I must have missed the Palmolive discussion. I know my bottle of Photo-Flo will last me for decades because I only use a drop or two, so I wouldn't save much by buying it at the grocery. I don't know, and don't much care, if dishwashing fluid is even a suitable substitute. But Borax, unlike Clorox, IS a proven substitute for many photo applications. I've always used grocery store washing soda too. It works, and is consistent. Nothing else matters. I would not use Clorox, even though it's bleach.

  4. #34
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    But doesn't Palmolive soften your hands while you do your film?

    I'd heard the dish-soap thing before from someone working in a photo store. He told me only use it in a "pinch" (if you really really have to and can't get the correct stuff), and that with proper technique surfactant probably isn't even needed.
    Truzi

  5. #35

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    Aha! .. I spy a(nother) thread where the Apollonian/Magistral mode of discourse clashes with that of the Dionysian/Menippean ... where's Socrates when we need him?

  6. #36
    zsas's Avatar
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    Haaaaa! Or the Capulets vs Montagues......
    Andy

  7. #37
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    I hope not the Hatfields vs. McCoys...
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    from what i understand borax can be replace sodium metaborate in some formulas even though it is sodium tetaborate
    ( in d-23 for example ) and i think ( correct me if i am wrong ) the film developing cookbook says this ..
    The pH produced by sodium tetraborate (borax) and sodium metaborate (Kodalk) are quite different and one cannot be substituted for the other. Borax is a mild alkali while sodium metaborate is almost a alkaline as sodium carbonate. If the FDC says that they are interchangeable then this is another error in a poorly edited book. Borate chemistry is rather complex and the naming can be quite confusing.

    Years ago I contacted US Borax about the purity of Twenty Mule Team borax. It is more than pure enough for photo purposes. The principle impurity is a very small amount of sodium chloride.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  9. #39
    jnanian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truzi View Post
    But doesn't Palmolive soften your hands while you do your film?

    I'd heard the dish-soap thing before from someone working in a photo store. He told me only use it in a "pinch" (if you really really have to and can't get the correct stuff), and that with proper technique surfactant probably isn't even needed.
    not so sure i would recommend that at all
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/6...-photoflo.html
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/2...tml#post249242

    it leaves soap scum ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    jnanian, you are missing the point that I have been making. If I were to recommend Clorox bleach replace the bleach for C-41 processing, would you have worked so hard to get around the point?

    nope i would agree with you 100% ..
    but you used photoflo ( which i agreed with you 100% ) and
    borax ( which can be used successfully ) ..

    my point is that there are things that can be used with no ill affect
    if they are not photo grade or pharma grade or just sold off the shelf
    at abc-mart.

    but i do agree with you .. there are a lot of foolish people who do foolish things.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    The pH produced by sodium tetraborate (borax) and sodium metaborate (Kodalk) are quite different and one cannot be substituted for the other. Borax is a mild alkali while sodium metaborate is almost a alkaline as sodium carbonate. If the FDC says that they are interchangeable then this is another error in a poorly edited book. Borate chemistry is rather complex and the naming can be quite confusing.

    Years ago I contacted US Borax about the purity of Twenty Mule Team borax. It is more than pure enough for photo purposes. The principle impurity is a very small amount of sodium chloride.
    thanks gerald

    i was going by what is quoted here:
    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...1-Borax-Kodalk

    that in some instances it can be a useful substitute.
    i don't have any borax, or kodalk, only metabrate ..
    so i really can't say if it works or is absolutely foolhardy.

    i haven't made divided d-23 yet ( which is what i got the metaborate for in the first place )
    so i can't even make a comparison between the original recipe and the one Anchell & Troop's Film Developing Cookbook
    suggest can be done instead with borax ...

    but i agree with a lot of what you ( and steve ) have said
    that people do foolish things to save a few cents, and often times in the end it is a waste of time and money and energy.
    Last edited by jnanian; 06-16-2013 at 07:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.

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