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  1. #81
    clayne's Avatar
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    It's a bit trite to split the methodology divisively into just process or goal. It's not either/or and one can easily be obsessed with too much of one direction. But to not acknowledge that process plays a part IN the goal is just underhanded. If it didnt play a part many of the digital shots I see how there would exercise restraint, some kind of character, and a sense of patience. The vast majority do not and this isn't even touching on the technical aspects of the medium.

    And any true car guy worth his merit isn't saying "oh automatic or manual, it doesn't matter" - they know the only proper way is a stick shift. Everything else is just justifying worth and/or trying to hunt for "equality" where there innately isn't any.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    (Blansky was addressing Ken N, but how could anything bad ever happen due to jumping into someone else's argument on the inet?)



    And even that distinction isn't at all sharp, because there are a bunch of different levels of "process" involved in photography. What you might call the high-level artistic process---see, visualize, capture, print---doesn't seem to me to be very different in different photographic media, but the "craft" processes are very different; not just between analog and the D-word, but between darkroom enlarging and cyanotypes, wet plate, liquid emulsion on an eggshell. Heck, the differences in process between rollfilm and sheet film are significant to many people.

    But what's the point in trying to draw a boundary in that set of craft- and medium-specific processes and say THIS side is all basically the same and THAT side is totally different (or "is not photography", "is inauthentic", "sucks", or similar sweeping generalities)? Is there something to be achieved through that argument, other than the usual chimera of "I won" bragging rights and the subsequent "No you didn't" meta-argument? It just seems to me like people are going to perpetrate images the way they want to, and call it whatever they call it, and so what?

    Personally, I long ago gave up on purism and will cheerfully shoot any old thing and print it any old way. Interestingly, if I look around the stuff I've chosen to put up in my office, almost all of it was shot on film. (The really good stuff, as opposed to "cute picture of the kid that coulda been taken with anything", is mostly large format, but it's not because my contact prints are technically awesome---they're actually pretty awful---but because I compose better on a big ground glass, I think. So the "craft" processes end up affecting my "art" processes, in the terms I used above; which I think is quite compatible with anything being said in this discussion.)

    -NT
    The evolution of this discussion with Ken has been rather ongoing and my background for 30 years was analog then switched to digital. (Professional studio/outdoor portrait photography) And my personal position is shoot and use whatever you enjoy and for me personally I switched to digital very late for various reasons and have stated and been agreed with by some and disagree with by others that for me one process was just replaced by the other and it is pretty much the same.

    Ken is more of a purist and we never reached any consensus because he feels that they are not the same.

    Which they obviously aren't but for me they actually are in the sense as I said that one just replaced the other and my ONLY goal is the print.

    So Ken makes sure to stress in many threads that Damn it, they are different.

    So this last post was to assure him that any idiot can see that technically, physically, and psychically they are DIFFERENT.

    But yet the same.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  3. #83
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    It's a bit trite to split the methodology divisively into just process or goal. It's not either/or and one can easily be obsessed with too much of one direction. But to not acknowledge that process plays a part IN the goal is just underhanded. If it didnt play a part many of the digital shots I see how there would exercise restraint, some kind of character, and a sense of patience. The vast majority do not and this isn't even touching on the technical aspects of the medium.

    And any true car guy worth his merit isn't saying "oh automatic or manual, it doesn't matter" - they know the only proper way is a stick shift. Everything else is just justifying worth and/or trying to hunt for "equality" where there innately isn't any.
    Absolutely right.

    Except not for me. The print is my ONLY objective. Not process.

    I'm a car guy. Would never own a stick shift.

    As I've always said, use what you enjoy.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  4. #84
    Klainmeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    I'm a car guy. Would never own a stick shift.
    -1 beer
    K.S. Klain

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klainmeister View Post
    -1 beer
    Good. You had too many stacked up to begin with.
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  6. #86
    Klainmeister's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was getting spendy.
    K.S. Klain

  7. #87

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    I started off reading KR because I found his site when looking for reviews on digital gear for my T4i (yes, I'm new to photography). Reading his site (with the understanding that it is one person's opinion in an industry of opinion) has gotten me interested in film and lead to picking up a Canon EOS 620 and considering 4x5. I have spent about a month on APUG and am ready to give up and sell the 620 and remaining film due to all the chicken little film is dead mentality running around. Like his reviews and articles or not, his positive outlook on film does a lot more good than all the negativity I read here

  8. #88
    Prest_400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dngrhm View Post
    I have spent about a month on APUG and am ready to give up and sell the 620 and remaining film due to all the chicken little film is dead mentality running around. Like his reviews and articles or not, his positive outlook on film does a lot more good than all the negativity I read here
    Hey, given cross compatibility between film and digital and the cheap prices of film cameras I'd say keep it and, even if not for primary shooting; do shoot film every once in a while.
    Negative film (cound be for a ban pun) does things that digital doesn't.

    As of colour, E6 is holding on alright; C41 negative is going quite well and B&W will be around just forever.
    While the material is out there, you can shoot with it.

    And let's see what is Ferrania going to do... Introducing a new E6 film doesn't happen every day; and much less from a new and commited player.

  9. #89
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    It's a bit trite to split the methodology divisively into just process or goal. It's not either/or and one can easily be obsessed with too much of one direction. But to not acknowledge that process plays a part IN the goal is just underhanded. If it didnt play a part many of the digital shots I see how there would exercise restraint, some kind of character, and a sense of patience. The vast majority do not and this isn't even touching on the technical aspects of the medium.

    And any true car guy worth his merit isn't saying "oh automatic or manual, it doesn't matter" - they know the only proper way is a stick shift. Everything else is just justifying worth and/or trying to hunt for "equality" where there innately isn't any.
    An awfulmatic, as I call them, isn't even driving. At best it's "causing a four wheeled conveyance almost but not quite completely like a car to roll around."

    Seriously, it depends on why you drive. If you enjoy the driving, as I do, you'll probably like the stick, as I do. I've owned over a dozen cars (I think the total is about 14, I'd have to think about it) over the years of which only two were autos, both of which were kept less than six months, one for only about two WEEKS. If you drive only to get from one place to another as quickly and easily as possible you will probably like the automatic transmission.

    Seriously, I don't know what someone who isn't at all interested in process and enjoys digital is even doing here. I don't say that's "wrong" at all, just "what are you doing on APUG then?" I don't get it. This forum is dedicated to the analog process.

  10. #90
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dngrhm View Post
    I started off reading KR because I found his site when looking for reviews on digital gear for my T4i (yes, I'm new to photography). Reading his site (with the understanding that it is one person's opinion in an industry of opinion) has gotten me interested in film and lead to picking up a Canon EOS 620 and considering 4x5. I have spent about a month on APUG and am ready to give up and sell the 620 and remaining film due to all the chicken little film is dead mentality running around. Like his reviews and articles or not, his positive outlook on film does a lot more good than all the negativity I read here
    I don't get that at all. There's no chicken little here. If anything folks are overly optimistic. But that's ok - enjoy it while you can. If you like black and white, relax. If you like color neg, you have, in my estimation, a fair while to enjoy it. But if color transparency is your thing, well, "smoke 'em while you got 'em."



 

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