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Thread: ENTROPY

  1. #21
    dasBlute's Avatar
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    "Nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate you will always have the advantage."
    - von neumann to shannon
    I need some more entropy in my approach , I seem way too obsessive about sharpness and perfect negs...

  2. #22

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    Entropy is defined as a measure of the disorder (randomness) of a system. As such it is a very basic concept which is not confined to only thermodynamic systems. Consider a jar filled with equal numbers of black and white marbles. The black marbles are at the bottom of the jar. Shake the jar and we increase the entropy since some white marbles are now where blacks were and vice versa. The order of the system has been changed.

    Using statistical mechanics equations representing the three laws of thermodynamics can be derived using only pure mathematics without any reference to physical reality.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 11-04-2013 at 02:10 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  3. #23
    Black Dog's Avatar
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    Entropy:what your darkroom looks like after various members of your family have dumped all their junk in there!
    "He took to writing poetry and visiting the elves: and though many shook their heads and touched their foreheads and said 'Poor old Baggins!' and though few believed any of his tales, he remained very happy till the end of his days, and those were extraordinarily long "- JRR Tolkien, ' The Hobbit '.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    I didn't learn much from the thermodynamics portions of my physics courses, but one thing I did catch is that entropy is not optional!

    -NT
    No, not in a closed system anyway. Without entropy, energy couldn't be utilised, photographic processes wouldn't work, and time would have no direction.
    That said, I allow as little chaos (disorder, what I think you meant by entropy) into my work as possible.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
    Entropy:what your darkroom looks like after various members of your family have dumped all their junk in there!
    Except that seems more like enthalpy, because it grows, and grows, and grows .

    I prefer to think about it as the end of day result of a day that began with lots of plans and intentions.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  6. #26
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    John, you have enticed a number of left brain heavyweights into what I started to understand was a seriously right brain question. I respect their intellect deeply, but their comments make my hair hurt. If you're asking whether your photographic approach is shared by others, no, I don't think it is. But, it's so you that I don't even look beyond the thumbnail to recognize a 'Nanian', and that is an indelible style that's courageous and independent whether or not I like the particular 'graph.
    John Voss

    My Blog

  7. #27
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    I don't really go all out towards entropy, but I try to allow for happy accidents. When I do Mordançage, there's definitely entropy involved.
    I happen to be working on a book review article for a photo club in PA and was looking in Tao of Photography by Tom Ang - the two quotes on the page I opened to are:
    Those who oppose the flow of Tao end up being called "unlucky." - Tao Te Ching
    The Wise succeed without intending to do so. - Lao Tzu

    I spent the first few years of photography just doing things as I felt like doing them, then spent a few years being VERY methodical. Now I'm leaning more towards in between the two approaches with some experiments just because.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    Entropy is defined as a measure of the disorder (randomness) of a system. As such it is a very basic concept which is not confined to only thermodynamic systems. Consider a jar filled with equal numbers of black and white marbles. The black marbles are at the bottom of the jar. Shake the jar and we increase the entropy since some white marbles are now where blacks were and vice versa. The order of the system has been changed.

    Using statistical mechanics equations representing the three laws of thermodynamics can be derived using only pure mathematics without any reference to physical reality.
    Very good!
    Also you might come across the term in information theory and particularly in discussions of "entropy sources" for encryption. This use is not quite the same as the use in physics that Gerald described well. Shannon wrote the seminal paper about information theory and formed an equation from probabilistic considerations that is similar to the equation for entropy in thermodynamics. There was a debate about what to call the quantity and he ended up using the term "entropy" due to the mathematical similarity, but later I think he regretted that choice because the relationship with physical entropy more form than anything else and it leads to some misleading analogies.

    Apologies, since I think I skidded off the right brain topic, and whether it's chaos or luck or serendipity I like it.
    Last edited by NedL; 11-05-2013 at 12:07 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: apologies!

  9. #29
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    For all of you A.S. Eddington fans, I've always really enjoyed the mental imagery conjured up by his entropy-related term The Arrow of Time* where an increase in chaos defines the forward direction of that metric.

    And not coincidently, I think, isn't that also a nearly perfect description of John's approach to photography?



    Ken

    * As defined by him in The Nature of the Physical World, p.68, Cambridge University Press, 1929, wherein he begins its discussion with the wonderfully marvelous observation, "The great thing about time is that it goes on."
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    You want entropy, photograph children.
    Yes!

    Then photograph the same children in their 40s, 60s, ...

    Edit: Their parents may be good stand-in's if you can't wait a few decades.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

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