But Michael, people do and will just head for a website to ask questions and get information; that is where facts are found and participation and interaction take place nowadays,not in the columns of magazines or at camera clubs.
Accordingly, the prevailing attitude will encourage or discourage them, and the depth and consistency of the "us" (i.e. real analogue photographers who eschew anything digital and make real photographs) vs "them" (stupid young people who like instagram and their stupid smartphones) attitude that so often prevails at APUG is actively discouraging.
It has improved somewhat even over the time I've been here, but it does nevertheless appear deeply ingrained
I've been a member here for a long time, and a subscriber for most of that time. I seem to recall that APUG used to think of itself (ourselves) as being the first and last destination for analog information. Sound and trustworthy information. What do you suppose has changed? Could it possibly be a tone and attitude that sorts away the people interested in giving and receiving sound and trustworthy advice?
When you consider that a large majority of potential film users will have become interested in photography by using some sort of digital device, yes, I think it will discourage people. Why anyone would find it necessary to bash another person's method of producing images is beyond me, but it happens here in thread after thread.
Originally Posted by Michael R 1974
Interesting. I don't see it that way. It is a place mostly for opinion, and a little bit of diagnosis/problem-solving. Whether I search recent threads or old stuff from "the good old days", I find mostly bad information, which is worse than no information. Based on what I've seen at LFF and a few other places, APUG is better (at least when it comes to materials and chemistry), but still not the place to learn the basics. I recommend getting some foundations first, and enough experience to sort good and bad information, or else you're in trouble. Granted, this doesn't apply equally to all the forums on APUG - certainly there seems to be better info in some of the "lesser-travelled" areas such as emulsion making/coating.
pdeeh: actually when people come here as beginners and ask questions, I encourage them to first read some good books (which don't have to be complicated) and/or easy-to-read publications by manufacturers such as Kodak and Ilford. Just because the internet forums are popular places, doesn't mean the facts are found there. It is mostly opinion, rarely with supporting evidence. And even where there is good information, it can easily overwhelm a beginner - even if everyone is nice and friendly.
Every site is like this. It has nothing to do with APUG being a particularly negative place. Yes as analog workers many of us are stubborn old curmudgeons, and there are also egos at work. But it is like that everywhere. I was a member of a trumpet player's forum for a while. What do you think went on there? The same thing. Heated arguments over mouthpieces, why the old horns were better than the new horns, etc, etc. Is that where a beginning trumpet player should go to get information? Not if he wants to learn to play well and be a good musician.
Sorry I guess I'm pretty much on my own on this issue (again!). It's the internet. Grain of salt. Shoot the sh1t. That sort of thing.
Last edited by Michael R 1974; 01-29-2014 at 03:20 PM. Click to view previous post history.
Actually one of the things I hear most often about film photography is that it's only done by Hipsters and wannabees, the problem I saw with this Video is that these photographers might be perceived as such, just compare them to the LOMO guys(age and look) and Lomo users are wrongfully called Hipsters even on this forum, check out the first thread for this Video and you'll see what I mean. On a personal not I would have preferred to see photographers from different age groups from fascinated child to the 101 year photo legend, this video makes it look like analogue photography is something for the tweens to max forties.
Originally Posted by pdeeh
Regarding the comment real photographers I should have used "" the same with Hipsters. Sorry
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You've been here longer than I, I'm pretty sure, but as far as I remember we've had threads that inspired the same question. It seems to me that the user base has always included some people who liked to argue, including some whose tone and behavior could be seen as discouraging, but also including some whose arguments contained content of real value (and sometimes those are the same people).
Originally Posted by dwross
I don't think anything has changed except for some gradual rollover in the cast of characters. That's not to say I think everything is hunky-dory, or that nobody is put off by excessive argumentation, but 'twas ever thus, IMHO.
San Diego, CA, USA
The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
-The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_
Forgot to add I am a Lomo user and fall into the same socio-economic group as the guys in the video.
Denise APUG is still a place for sound and trustworthy information, but it has changed in the way people interact the tone has become much more agressive imo. BTW I joined because of believe it or not Blansky's posts which were always funny and contained often a great deal of wisdom. Some of the greatest and most informative posters aside from Blansky are unfortunately no longer active in the forum haven't read something aside from Workshops from Jason Brunner, Cheryl Jacobs or Nicole Boenig-McGrade in a long time, Sandy King is no longer on the forum as well these people contributed a lot to the attractiveness of APUG at least to me.
Last edited by MDR; 01-29-2014 at 03:35 PM. Click to view previous post history.
@michael - I think you may underestimate the extent to which people in general have come to regard "the internet" as the place to find information. Using books rather than google as a primary source of information is something one learns to do, and those of us (yes, me too) who were educated in a pre-digital age perhaps have a preference and an inbuilt assumption that books are the place to find information. I am convinced (although I have no evidence beyond my belief, of course) that people whose education has taken place largely in the digital and especially "internet" age have learned different information-gathering skills.
Of course these kinds of silly attitudes are found everywhere, but as I am here and not everywhere else, and as I have learned a lot from APUG and have a love for photography,it's perhaps natural that how they are manifested here matters to me.
And I believe it should matter to all of us whether APUG is seen as a welcoming, interesting place where much can be learned, rather than an ill-tempered haunt of angry middle-aged men who don't want their cosy corner disturbed by noisy kids.
... yet surely it's alright to disagree on the video in question here.
Originally Posted by pdeeh
pdeeh: Fair enough. We'll have to disagree on the "internet". It's not that I underestimate the extent to which people regard it as a place to find information. I just think people overestimate the extent to which it is reliable information vs sheer opinion. Also for the record the beginner-level guides I often point people to are available on the internet .
I think all things considered APUG is a pretty friendly place. It doesn't usually get too bad in the places beginners might find the most "information" (Darkroom Equipment, Enlarging, etc.). But when it comes to Philosophy and that sort of thing, well, everyone be warned, beginners and pros alike.