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  1. #11

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    I wonder how far this intolerance and fear will spread. I have two issues of Blind Spot (out of a complete set) that have under-18 nudity (one Sally Mann, the other I forget). I've always worried that if street photography ever gets me searched they'll take a very dim view of these.

    OTOH I bet pedophiles love that there's legitimate art they can still legally buy to get off to. I doubt it's an accident that the Sally Mann Blind Spot has gone for over $100 on ebay (although all early Blind Spots are fairly valuable). David and Sally may well have stunning artistic merit (haven't seen his work; hers is certainly exceptional), but what percentage of their customers would you bet are rich pervs?

    Re: "grandfathering"--this is not always automatic. Paul Reubens (aka PeeWee Herman) got busted for stuff that was mostly 30-50 years old. He did however--after two years of fighting--go from being a "big child porn bust" to misdemeanor obscenity charges, $100 fine, 3 years probation, 170 pieces of his collection destroyed. It probably happened like that solely because he had the dough to stand up to nonsense charges. Don't count on getting that much justice with a public defender.

  2. #12

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    I've mentioned before that my issue with this (photographing naked underage children) is that a child can't give informed consent, simply because they are not old enough. Laws are designed with good purpose, to protect children - even from their parents.

    My question, though, is that if you walk into a a Barnes and Noble and purchase a Hamilton book, you have a certiain presumption that the book is legal to sell, vis-a-vis pornography laws. How can an individual be held at risk of breaking the law, given the circumstances?

  3. #13

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    Leave children alone! Don't photograph them, don't talk with them, don't look at them, and especially never touch them!

    And if that means you wouldn't help injured child in fear that someone would accuse you for indecent touching of child, so be it! Just call ambulance and walk away. Better leave child to suffer than to be accused for paedophilia.

    Just, simpy, get away from chidren. Allways!

    I think that would make moralists happy.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by haris
    Leave children alone! Don't photograph them, don't talk with them, don't look at them, and especially never touch them!

    And if that means you wouldn't help injured child in fear that someone would accuse you for indecent touching of child, so be it! Just call ambulance and walk away. Better leave child to suffer than to be accused for paedophilia.

    Just, simpy, get away from chidren. Allways!

    I think that would make moralists happy.
    This story would tend to support your advice.
    http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...-molest01.html
    "Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are perfect."

  5. #15
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haris
    Better leave child to suffer than to be accused for paedophilia.
    No. If it happens that I am accused falsely, I will be accused falsely. I can't think of a better reason to go down the tubes. Hell of a small price to pay to alleviate the suffering of a child.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    Hell of a small price to pay to alleviate the suffering of a child.
    It is never small price to be accused falsely. Especially to be accused as sex offender. Because people have tendency to think like: "Where is smoke there must be a fire", or translated, no matter if court find you not guilty people would think there is something, and you are acquitted only for technical or formal reasons. Fear is too strong.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by haris
    It is never small price to be accused falsely. Especially to be accused as sex offender. Because people have tendency to think like: "Where is smoke there must be a fire", or translated, no matter if court find you not guilty people would think there is something, and you are acquitted only for technical or formal reasons. Fear is too strong.
    I can see your point... The justice system in the US is flawed to say the least and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty is a pipe dream.

    Children are innocent; they should be viewed as innocent. Unfortunately, certain individuals in our society are not innocent and they are not effectively restrained (jailed, executed, castrated then executed - take your pick) from preying upon children. Therefore it is the utmost parental responsibility to keep them safe. In my opinion, that means that they should not be photographed in any way, shape or form that might evoke a provocative response and parents who have allowed such are either stupid or unwilling to face the reality of the world we live in.

    It doesn't have anything to do with whether such photography is right or wrong or art or not. It has everything to do with the predators we must protect our children from. As photographers/artists, we are responsible for what we create for the world to see. To produce work that allows a pedophile to indulge in his or her sick fantasies is, in my opinion, totally without responsibility or ethics and to claim the right to do so in the name of art is, and forgive me here, bullshit.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digidurst
    It doesn't have anything to do with whether such photography is right or wrong or art or not. It has everything to do with the predators we must protect our children from. As photographers/artists, we are responsible for what we create for the world to see. To produce work that allows a pedophile to indulge in his or her sick fantasies is, in my opinion, totally without responsibility or ethics and to claim the right to do so in the name of art is, and forgive me here, bullshit.
    Then I guess you'd disagree with all these people--

    [color=#0000ff]My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular.[/color] [color=#0000ff]Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.[/color] (1900 - 1965)

    [color=#0000ff]Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom.[/color] [color=#0000ff]Albert Einstein[/color] (1879 - 1955),

    [color=#0000ff]They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.[/color] [color=#0000ff]Benjamin Franklin[/color] (1706 - 1790)

    [color=#0000ff]To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive.[/color] [color=#0000ff]Robert Louis Stevenson[/color] (1850 - 1894)

    [color=#0000ff]I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.[/color] [color=#0000ff]Thomas Jefferson[/color] (1743 - 1826)

    [color=#0000ff]Patterning your life around other's opinions is nothing more than slavery.[/color] [color=#0000ff]Lawana Blackwell[/color],
    "Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are perfect."

  9. #19

  10. #20

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    Sorry Digidurst, I'm not sure I understand how some random sicko whacking off to an innocently intended picture hurts the child. I'm sure Sally Mann's daughters have a prominent place in many a pedophile's collection. That's disgusting, but I fail to see how it has actually hurt them. The few Mann's I've seen seem very much like warm family moments, not something where the child is under duress.

    I think it would be very interesting to compare child abuse stats with countries where child porn (nudity only, not sexual contact) is legal, like Japan and Denmark. Of course, the biggest determinant of child abuse statistics is how willing people are to report it, not how much is actually going on, so I suppose it wouldn't prove that much.

    If you want to toss individual rights to protect children, forbid single women with underage daughters from remarrying or cohabiting with a man until the daughter is 18. That'll prevent a thousand times as many shattered lives as anything you can do to David, Sally, Jock, etc.

    But the sad reality is that it's hard to deprive a large group of their rights; screwing a small group of photographers is trivially easy. Britain has gone exceptionally overboard, but most of the western world isn't that far behind.

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