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  1. #41
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley
    Ed, I have no doubt that you are going about this with the best of intentions.
    Thank you. Once in a while I try to be "squeaky clean". This is one of those times.

    One of the main functions that codes and standards serve is to prevent fraud. Even though a set of standards and a code may be adopted, I'm sure you are aware that there are people who will still get around it and continue with their fraudulent practices. Your proposal is for a voluntary code which it must be. No one here has the authority to make it legally binding in any way, nor does anyone have authority to enforce it. There is no means of enforcing it. So what good is it going to do towards combatting fraud?
    I don't expect it to be the ultimate answer, unless a Flaming Arm descends from the heavens and anoints us all as Guardians of ART (not likely). I have spent a bit of time pondering one question: "What is the alternative?" That is to do nothing, grit our teeth and hope that every fraud simply disappears.

    In the pragmatic sense, it is also promoting an agenda, the agenda of whoever writes the code, whether it be done by a committee or one individual, and whoever the code is adopted by. In adopting the code, the governing body says "These are the standards acceptable to (fill in the organization name)". Oh yes, as soon as a committee of people, no matter how informal it may be, say this is what we want, you have created a governing body who is forcing their agenda on those who subscribe to their code.
    It WOULD be "forcing" if it was not VOLUNTARY. If one chooses to use "the code" and identify it as an APUG code, they are expected to adhere to its provisions. Does that sound unreasonable?

    This may sound strange, but please think hard about it. You verbatim may not be the same as my verbatim. These "differences in verbatim" arguments arise all the time in the world of government-mandated codes and their intepretation between enforcers and subscribers.
    "Think hard about it." I haven't stopped thinking about it yet, nor do I intend to.

    So what I'm saying is, its an extremely slippery slope you want to take everyone on.
    Not if they do not want to be on that slope. See "Voluntary" above.

    The intentions may be sound and of the highest ethical nature. However, there will be stumble and once the fall begins, its awful, awful hard to get back to where you started.
    Not the first "slippery slope" I've been on (Why does this remind me of alpine skiing?).
    It would be nice to have all kinds of assurances and guarantees in life. I wonder if I could convince the local Lottery officials to include warrantees against losing.
    I, and those who choose to participate, will be risking time and effort. I don't think the earth is going to open up and swallow us if we fail and abandon the quest.

    Modifying a line I already stated, you verbatim is not going to be my verbatim.
    Fine with me. When did I infer that it HAD to be?
    Again, see "voluntary" comments above.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    I am wrestling with the "agenda based" idea. Do you mean to infer that someone has a covert agenda for establishing clear, concise and honest descriptions?
    If it's a voluntary system, the people you are attempting to reach just won't care anyhow... So what is this really about? (This is the agenda I'm seeing)

    As I see things, it's about trying to make our pictures sound better than the other guys because of materials and processes. That's fine, go crazy and describe and pigeon hole to your heart's content...

    Spend 10 minutes explaining to someone the longevity and processes and how this paper responds and this paper lasts and why this is so much better... blah blah blah... And then they turn to you all bleary eyed and confused and say "I just thought it was a really neat sunset".

    Unfortunately I think you're preaching to the choir. The only people likely to use the definitions are those that already describe their work properly.

    This isn't about rules and standards... It's about feeling misunderstood and underappreciated. I would say spending your time creating better and better work instead of thinking up more rules for photographers would get you farther in the end.

    joe

  3. #43
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Symchyshyn
    I would say spending your time creating better and better work instead of thinking up more rules for photographers would get you farther in the end.
    Thanks for your advice.

    Do you expect me to ... Would you WANT me to ... respond in kind?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  4. #44
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    For discussion:

    Calotype: A print from a paper negative, created by exposing a paper negative - paper, sensitized with a mixture of salt or potassium iodide and silver nitrate, with or without gallic acid; and then fixed in salt and then, usually made transparent with a molten wax bath for printing. The print was made using, essentially, the same process.

    How about it, group? Anyone doing Calotypes care to revise/ simplify - expand or correct - this?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    For discussion:
    How about it, group? Anyone doing Calotypes care to revise/ simplify - expand or correct - this?
    Ed,

    This is a side note. What you are attempting is admirable. It is simply definining a particular process. Those who have chimed in with their $0.02 to tear down your efforts do not appreciate where you are coming from. Having said that, keep on truckin', dude.

    What most folks fail to realize it is the erosion of the language of photography.

    For what its worth: I believe digital, as well as digital hyprid, is an offshoot of "photography." Digital is not something that REPLACES a photographic process, but is an ALTERNATIVE means of realizing an image. If those who practice it would be true to their medium, we would not have a conflict.

    That said, Keep on Keepin' on, Dude...many are behind you.

  6. #46
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Symchyshyn
    This isn't about rules and standards... It's about feeling misunderstood and underappreciated. I would say spending your time creating better and better work instead of thinking up more rules for photographers would get you farther in the end. joe
    I think you're assessment is on track Joe. But I'm as dense as usual and don't understand why anyone should feel misunderstood or underappreciated just because they do analog photography. Those sound like basic personal problems having nothing to do with photography.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  7. #47
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Getting ready for an exhibition -

    I'll describe one work as "Nude #31"
    Under that: Analog Photograph, Silver Gelatin Print.

    I should add "Signed in verso, with photographers DNA."

    I cut my own mats ... someday I'll learn to cut ONLY the mat, and not myself.
    It could happen. :rolleyes:
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  8. #48
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    Found this on the web. Seems to be pretty decent definitions, but I really wouldn't know:

    Photography definitions on About.com

    Art.
    Visit my website at www.ArtLiem.com
    or my online portfolios at APUG and ModelMayhem

  9. #49
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr82bart
    Found this on the web. Seems to be pretty decent definitions, but I really wouldn't know:
    Photography definitions on About.com
    Art.
    All those sites have useful items in their definitions... Most are a little too involved, comparing one process to another, or including aesthetic evaluations.

    I've often said that this game is either feast or famine. Either I'm thrashing around like crazy or sitting here contemplating the flight of butterflies.
    Recently the swamp done rose considerably, bringing the alligators closer to my rump, so I'm frantically tying to cope.

    I'd like someone familiar with, or primarily interested in each specific process to read the definitions available, "concise" them and post them here for consideration.
    Translation: Help!!
    I'm by NO MEANS giving up, but I have to prioritize, and that necessarily means working more slowly HERE.

    One question, for those making "Carbon" prints: Does there seem to be a significant difference between "Carbon" and "Carbro" prints?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  10. #50
    gr82bart's Avatar
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    Hey Ed,

    You might want to use a format similar to this document. Not literally, but perhaps the methodology they used to outline and categorized the various processes. Basically they began with the taxonomical hierarchy and drilled down by distinguishing characteristics that separate categories. When complete this led to an 'easy' way to define the processes. It sounds complicated, but it isn't- I think.

    http://www.fda.gov/cder/guidance/1721fnl.pdf

    Regards, Art (I helped develop that document)
    Visit my website at www.ArtLiem.com
    or my online portfolios at APUG and ModelMayhem

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