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  1. #11
    John Bartley's Avatar
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    I guess my philosophy for enjoying the personal (not work related) part of my life is simple and I apply it to my antique radio hobby, my flying (when I can afford to) and my photography ...


    If what you do, you do for other peoples approval, then you'd better be ready for some disappointments, especially if what you do is analogue photography. Ninety-nine percent of the world follows the latest tends (read "digital") and doesn't care what you do and thinks you're stuck in the past.

    If you do it for yourself (as I do), then who cares what they think? I don't. I do it for me and I can be both my worst and most lenient critic.

    Summary ? .... do it for you ... when you're happy, ignore the rest.

    cheers

  2. #12
    digiconvert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bartley
    I do it for me and I can be both my worst and most lenient critic.

    Summary ? .... do it for you ... when you're happy, ignore the rest.

    cheers
    That's probably my view on my photography-though you wouldn't guess it from my earlier rant. I guess having read what others say I aknowledge I was a little OTT in some respects BUT D5 guy is bored stiff with his digital photos, he says there's no challenge, but gets frustrated when he tries to shoot BW film and gets told it will take 8 days to get it back. He would love to use MF/35mm but feels he doesn't have the prior knowledge to use them. I have tried to convince him but he is afraid of the failure which will happen from time to time.
    I guess my real target is the 'always perfect' view of the world so many people have now. I see it with the kids I teach who are afraid to write anything down in case it's wrong, friends who walk away from a relationship because they have the occasional row (it's nor perfect so it's not working). Analogue photography is by it's nature fraught with imperfection - like other traditional arts you get better from keeping and noting your mistakes.
    My original point was that a photograph should have a degree of veritas, I can crop a print, change the exposure etc. but I have to have a pretty good reason to superimpose one neg omn another - for the simple reason that it's so damn hard (and I do not posess the skills to do it). I love taking photographs and processing them, I admit I am a rank amateur, but the fact that those teaching the art are now so keen to dismiss analogue is something that I find pretty painful. Rant over for now.

  3. #13
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjsphoto
    That I highly doubt and especially not in 4 hours.
    I absolutely agree with you here; my point is just that the rant against the cut-and-paste should be directed to cut-and-paste proper, not digital per se. Digital facilitates cut-and-paste, as you clearly demonstrate, but it did not invent it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjsphoto
    Sorry, but digital is not an art form as far as I am concerned, it is a cop out for being lazy. And I don’t know any LF shooter or MF shooter to take out 1000 rolls of film and blow through it like the digital shooters does on a weekend. That is simply another cop out. Well you film guy takes 5 rolls of film. Personally fro a weekend I am luck to get off a single roll of 120, 12 shoots or use 6 film holders for an entire weekend.
    The same argument was levelled against photography when it came out. Later on, 35mm shooters on a motor drive were also sneered at for making statistics rather than caring about their images.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjsphoto
    You know what today’s photographer are missing? Sitting and studying the scene., making sure that every element in the scene has it place, making sure the image is complete, making sure that the elements support one another to create the composition. It is about studying line, form and balance. It is not about who got the most image from the weekend.
    Digital gives you just more facility to shoot like an idiot. It does not necessarily follows that it MAKES you an idiot. A good photographer is someone who will strive to get the best image out of a light-sensitive-optical system. If someone, film or digital, tells me he's got a bigger artistic dick because he took more pictures in an hour than I did, then he's just useless under any consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjsphoto
    With today’s digital shooter they don’t need to worry about anything as they will download to the computer and clone out and clone in things that are and not there. Add a sky, add a road and while there at it, add some water and lakes as well. They have nothing but total and complete disregard for the art of photography, which to me is completely revolting. Then they push it one step further and call it a fine photograph when its nothing more than an outright lie, a complete fallacy. A push of a button and they can output 10,000 identical pieces of paper with ink squirted all over it in a sequence to creating something that tries to resemble a photographic print.
    Here I agree fully with you, because you put your finger on actual practices, not on an a priori consideration of the medium's impact. Digital doesn't make people lazy: they were ALREADY lazy. Now they can just indulge what they always wanted.

    I don't even shoot digital, nor do I care anymore so much about what digital shooters think, but the weakest link in the artistic chain is not the tool, it's what's in their heads.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  4. #14
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannL
    In fact I think "straight photography" is the best anyone can do to represent the truth.
    I am sorry, but you deserve a full philosophical slap on the face for that statement! Realism and claims to truth in depictions are not at all universals, and Albertian perspective is surely not the best representation of reality. In current Western practices of art, yes, so-called "straight" photo is a potent statement of truth and accuracy in representation, but when Alberti brought up his new technique of representation with points de fuites and converging lines, not everyone got it right at first. There is a certain level of cultural entrenchment that comes with the issue of realism.

    To show that I'm not a damn relativist, just compare a drawing of a cube made according to the standards of Renaissance perspective, and one made according to axonometric projection, as is used in technical drawings and blueprints. Which one is more realistic? The one that gives you an optical illusion or the one that reproduces faithfully all distances between every points?

    Quote Originally Posted by DannL
    Variety is the spice of life. Even when it comes to "opinions".
    Sure is. I'm just blockheaded enough to believe that there are some facts, also.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  5. #15
    digiconvert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv

    Here I agree fully with you, because you put your finger on actual practices, not on an a priori consideration of the medium's impact. Digital doesn't make people lazy: they were ALREADY lazy. Now they can just indulge what they always wanted........weakest link in the artistic chain is not the tool, it's what's in their heads.
    I think we are getting to the point I was so clumsily trying to make. I have a lot of time for the skill of the other guy in the group who I referred to as D5 guy and we get on really well. However he has been trained to keep shooting until he gets a good shot and if it doesn't work out then PS it. The fact that he sees an image well and is a VERY good exponent of PS help a lot but if he wasn't as skilled (in other words if he were me!) he would never actually make any progress as a photographer because he could put his mistakes right later. Digital feeds the urge to be idle which we all have and I think it encourages the view that a more expensive camera equals better pictures (I know that one is as old as the art itself), worst of all it is in danger of turning people off photography once they get the initial buzz of their new 'toy'.

  6. #16
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digiconvert
    The fact that he sees an image well and is a VERY good exponent of PS help a lot but if he wasn't as skilled (in other words if he were me!) he would never actually make any progress as a photographer because he could put his mistakes right later.
    Tee hee, don't worry about your abilities, we knew you were more talented than him

    The learning process is another major point, and I think accounts for facts as simple as the importance people put on teaching exposure using nothing but a light meter and manual mode, or some photo schools' emphasis on the use of a view camera prior to the use of 35mm cameras. It's a bit like learning your tables of multiplication before relying completely on a pocket calculator.

    I had once to make a small photo shoot for an event at my job, and was lended a Nikon D100. I had to spend an entire DAY understanding the thing, but my photos came out decent only because I didn't rely on pre-set white balance, and understood something about metering. When it was set on all-automatic, all photos looked equally shitty. In fact I spent more time learning how NOT to use the automation than I did to setup my shots.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  7. #17

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    The title of this thread is: What Is A Photograph?

    To answer literally:

    Main Entry: photograph
    Function: noun
    : a picture or likeness obtained by photography

    Main Entry: photography
    Function: noun
    : the art or process of producing images on a sensitized surface
    (as a film) by the action of radiant energy and especially light


    So, the strict definition of photography is not just the end product, but it also includes the PROCESS used to make the photograph.

    That is why it's so important to include 'digital' in digital photography, it is an essential adjective to define the specific process involved in producing the final output.

    As for a lot of the discussion, you really aren't discussing what is photography, merely refinements and approaches to the process of producing a film-based photograph. It is more of an ethical discussion, one which I have had myself over the years.

    At some point, you will just accept what you come to accept and that will be that. That's where I am now and I don't feel any need to justify it. I don't like certain type of traditional photography work, so I just don't look at it or buy it, etc. I gravitate towards what I like and I'm mostly interested in what I do. I think that is one thing that some of the 'masters' had in common - they neither knew nor cared too much about what othere photographers were doing. Brett Weston is one example. Other more modern name photographers have felt the same way - they are just far too concerned with the path they are walking to take detours to check out other paths.

    So weather one photographer uses multiple negatives to produce landscapes or whatever, they have the right to do it, it is photography by definition and if you don't like what they do, well you can just put your attention elsewhere - on your own work would be a great place to start.

    -R

  8. #18

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    Here is the bottom line you can call it digital hogwash or photoshop.

    Either term will suffice.

    Actually now I think about it I think the proper term for digital images is photoshopgraphy. Basically takes little skill to produce and little talent to output to paper.

    That is how I see it.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannL
    Artists very rarely paint the truth, and most artists know it.
    I just have to disagree. It's usually the opposite. If the artists didin't convey truths, then they would be just some kind of propagandists at their best.

    "Accuracy" is not the right word, but perhaps "right feeling" is because it ultimately touches your heart.

    Just out of curiosity, do you know why satire political comedy has been so popular in the Bush years in the U.S.?

  10. #20
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Some people seek out and pay a premium for hand stitched quilts. Some people don't care as much and will pay less for otherwise identical machine made quilts. Still others don't care at all and will buy the cheapest blanket they can find at Walmart.

    Such is life...and the same applies for photography.

    Be confident in the choices you've made, and appreciate good works of art no matter what medium or combination of mediums it's produced with.

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

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