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  1. #21
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Murray to examine and to render judgement from a few photographs apart from the context in which they existed at the time of exposure is a very limited viewpoint, I think that you will agree.
    Ummm...no, I wouldn't agree.

    I hear you talking, but I don't see the physical photographic evidence which is the whole point of your point. I see nothing new.

    Murray
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    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  2. #22
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    One big dirty word you should borrow from literature is "Theme." A theme is a humanely relevant issue with which you engage by formulating it in a particular way. Part of the meaning of a work of art derives from the very specific way in which one does so.

    Case in point: Guernica. It's about military ruthlessness, more specifically about Franco's trial of German planes on a small innocent village. Yet it's not just a painting that's "about" war, or violence. It does so in a very specific manner. It applies form over content, if you will, and what it expresses is not a general idea, but a particularly formed one. One that exists only in that very incarnation. It also happens that this idea is powerful, moving, shocking, denunciating, and graphically stunning.

    There's been too much Stieglitz and not enough Picasso in photography, if you want my opinion.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

    My APUG Portfolio

  3. #23
    David H. Bebbington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    David, If you will reread what I have written I have not diminished technique. I have not said that technical knowledge is undesireable..nor have I meant to convey that creative expression should exist at the opposition of technical expertise.

    What I have sought to convey is that technical knowledge is not the same as creative expression. I believe that technical ability is a tool used in creative expression and to make it something else is akin to saying the stove on which we cook our meals is what we should be eating.

    I think, quite strongly, that it is long past time to speak of creative expression as the primary necessity to the process. Let us, those of us, with an open mind to something beyond and apart from Zone VIII densities discuss the matter of creative expression.
    Donald, I appreciate you are not decrying technique but are rather saying that it in itself is not enough, and I would totally agree with you. What I would suggest, though, is that "technique" does not just mean the physical technicalities of a particular medium, but that there is a perfectly valid technique for developing creative ideas, too. I feel it is not helpful for people striving for artistic expression to think that they have simply to wait for the muse to strike in some vague and indefinable way.

    To return to the example of acting, it is a given in this profession that a group of artists (actors) can work through a creative process (rehearsal) and bring this to a predefined conclusion (live performance) by a certain time.It is also a given that technical considerations (learning lines, blocking out moves) have to come first but are far from enough in themselves and are only the necessary prelude to the creative phase (discovering the deeper meaning of a text). I feel there are some principles here which could usefully be applied to other media (including, but not only, photography!).

    Best regards,

    David

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv

    There's been too much Stieglitz and not enough Picasso in photography, if you want my opinion.
    i agree with you wholeheartedly, but the thing is that people with cameras are trapped in reality, and unless they do something drastic, photography will always be based in reality. i don't know what creative or artistic expression is. i do straight documentary photography ( most of the time ). i just use my camera as a tool to record what is around me. sometimes i see reality a little different than others, but we all see the world around us differently.

    - -john
    Last edited by jnanian; 05-23-2006 at 08:08 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: can't speell
    silver magnets, trickle tanks sold
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin
    Ummm...no, I wouldn't agree.

    I hear you talking, but I don't see the physical photographic evidence which is the whole point of your point. I see nothing new.

    Murray
    Murray,

    I will try to bring this to a point where you might understand. Let's take the images in my Transitions portfolio. Each of those have symbolic connotations. They were all taken during the middle to late 1980's. People who have an appreciation and understanding of symbolic meaning---notably those with and education of human functioning readily grasp the import and impact of those images.

    Of course if one has not experienced or been open to the possibility of a language apart from objective reality, this would include symbolism, then this will be quite obscure and misunderstood.

    Each of those images in that portfolio occurred at pivotal points in my life. Each of them revealed more about my internal orientation to life then they did about the objective reality.

    So when you say that you see nothing new...perhaps you need to learn the language that comprises symbolic meaning as it applies to you and to me.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by David H. Bebbington
    Donald, I appreciate you are not decrying technique but are rather saying that it in itself is not enough, and I would totally agree with you. What I would suggest, though, is that "technique" does not just mean the physical technicalities of a particular medium, but that there is a perfectly valid technique for developing creative ideas, too. I feel it is not helpful for people striving for artistic expression to think that they have simply to wait for the muse to strike in some vague and indefinable way.

    To return to the example of acting, it is a given in this profession that a group of artists (actors) can work through a creative process (rehearsal) and bring this to a predefined conclusion (live performance) by a certain time.It is also a given that technical considerations (learning lines, blocking out moves) have to come first but are far from enough in themselves and are only the necessary prelude to the creative phase (discovering the deeper meaning of a text). I feel there are some principles here which could usefully be applied to other media (including, but not only, photography!).

    Best regards,

    David
    David,
    I agree with what you have said. I think that you grasp that I am not saying one or the other...but I am saying, instead, let's discuss the creative expression in all of it's unknown aspects for most of us. Thank you for your post.

    I would go on to say that the muse that some rely upon to strike them with inspiration is within us and achieves birth through our own personal perspiration.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  7. #27
    Troy Hamon's Avatar
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    I just posted a reply to Jeremy's thread that seems along the lines of this one...but of course I don't think my answers will be satisfactory in either case. In summary, I think for some people the technique IS the style or expression, and for others it is irrelevant, they couldn't see the point in learning enough technique to understand the question but they produce very personal art. I don't see it so much as chicken and egg for photography as a whole, more a question of whether any individual photographer needs the chicken or the egg to make THEIR personal expression.

  8. #28
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    I will try to bring this to a point where you might understand. Let's take the images in my Transitions portfolio. Each of those have symbolic connotations.
    I'm so sorry Donald...but the light refracting from my sloped forehead is reflecting off the monitor and through the knotted thatch of my uni-brow. I'll brush it aside and we can all have a look at your portfolio;

    http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com/transitions.htm

    Again, I see nothing new. Without you're telling me specifically how these are symbolic to you, all I'm left with is the ponderous weight of simplistic symbolism of all the images I've seen before just like these.

    Why do you have to look down on us...you provoke this kind of reaction...

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin
    I'm so sorry Donald...but the light refracting from my sloped forehead is reflecting off the monitor and through the knotted thatch of my uni-brow. I'll brush it aside and we can all have a look at your portfolio;

    http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com/transitions.htm

    Again, I see nothing new. Without you're telling me specifically how these are symbolic to you...all I'm left with is the ponderous weight of simplistic symbolism of all the images I've seen before just like these.

    Why do you have to look down on us...you provoke this kind of reaction...

    Murray
    Murray, Murray, Murray...you would benefit from not offering such demeaning and abrasive commentary and perhaps then we could have a more pleasant interchange.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  10. #30
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    I will try to bring this to a point where you might understand.
    Yeah...right!

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

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