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  1. #41
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    One of the difficult things about forums and e-mails is that we can't really judge tone, and intent, very well. I know I get riled when a writer's style hits me wrong. God knows I probably irritate most of the folks around here, and they probably OUGHT to be irritated. But we're a diverse group, and there's probably more common ground here than we might think. When we get off the beaten paths, though, it's uncomfortable. I like rough edges around a question, myself. There's no wrong way to make a good picture, and the same should hold true for asking a question.

    This isn't a question that will appeal to everybody, any more than Ultra Large Format trivia appeals to everybody, or how to make one's own collodion is a question that ought to be explored at the dinner table.

    It's not up to me to preach about anything, especially courtesy. But - by way of comparison - last weekend I went to a dance and asked a girl to dance. She declined, politely, and that was that. I suspect had it been an APUG dance, she might have spent the rest of the evening following me around screaming "YOU SUCK".

    I like to think about questions like Miller has asked, and it's a relief to talk about something new: and the WAY a question is put is what MAKES it new. You know, like a good picture ?

    I'll hang on to this thread, and see where it goes. But there really isn't much to be gained by sticking around if you aren't interested.

    If you don't like the question, why not just move along, and get along ?
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  2. #42

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    g'day Donald
    i've also looked at your "Transitions" portfolio
    great images, well presented

    but as for deeper and symbolic meanings that are important to you, i don't get them, you haven't expressed them in a way i can comprehend

    so if these symbolic meanings are the important thing, for you, then i must conclude that these images are failures

  3. #43
    Sparky's Avatar
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    I'm kind of disappointed...

    I'm disappointed to see the way many people here are reacting to Donald's challenge...! I don't think there was ANYTHING even remotely 'holier-than-thou' in his post. And yet many seem to be reacting in a heavily defensive way. I mean - what the hell's up with THAT???!! Come on. It doesn't mean that the guy is purporting to have an exclusive license to artistic mastery. It just means that he's finding the tone here a little bit, uh, monochrome maybe. I sense a general fear of actually talking about images, what works and what doesn't. It's pretty easy to hide behind one's shiny equipment sometimes. Why is this? Can't we talk about image making here? I fully agree with Donald I think - maybe there's a website/forum where those of us who DO want to talk about such things can go...? I dunno. If anyone has any ideas...

  4. #44

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    Ray,Bill and Murray,

    By your own words you fail to grasp symbolic meaning in images that have symbolic meaning to me. It really is not up to me to explain what my personal take on something is. If you fail to grasp it then you fail to grasp it. Others do grasp it and that is as it should be.

    I guess what this amounts to is that it is a lot like me traveling to China and because I fail to understand Chinese expression I would tell all that Chinese are ignorant, misinformed, and misguided. I would ask you is the problem in that case one that exists with the Chinese or is it a problem that I have.

    Quite apparently there are those who have never experienced this aspect of photography and just when they thought they had artistic expression in their photography nailed down along comes a knotty board.

    So for those who don't understand and who fail to grasp this valid aspect of creative photographic expression you can either discuss it intelligently by indicating this is new and you fail to understand or you can continue to act the part of ignorant oafs who participate by attacking the new and the unknown.

    Either way the loss or the gain is yours. There are those here like DF Cardwell, Gordon, Jeremy Moore and others who are interested and see the benefit to be gained in discussion...then there are a few who are acting in the way that they typically do.

    Those who wish to participate by being a positive influence are certainly welcome to discuss this. Those who deign to judge and attack I ask you to go spread you BS elsewhere.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  5. #45
    billschwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Those who wish to participate by being a positive influence are certainly welcome to discuss this. Those who deign to judge and attack I ask you to go spread you BS elsewhere.
    I don't see why the discussion of mediocre, overdone artistic expression in photos is any less valid than discussion of a mediocre thesis on the Apparent Confusion of Artistic Expression.

    Look, I "grasp" symbolism. It's easy to attach symbolism to an overdone subject and call it new. A common crutch in art school. I'll quote you in your initial post "...show me something new!!!". It doesn't impress me when you back-up your degradation of "photographing "known subjects" until hell freezes over" by stating that there is some almighty symbolism in your photographs that to others are little more than beautifully executed visions of those same "known subjects".

    Bill

  6. #46
    scootermm's Avatar
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    interesting thread. and I actually appreciated the original post.
    However, the sad thing (or a Catch 22 in my mind) is that it seems pointless to discuss on something like an internet forum. the catch 22 being that the internet forum is what brings the diverse group of people together and affords the opportunity to discuss such things. yet, these things being difficult to discuss without offending someone somehow, or without misinterpreting.

    honestly, I find the discussion of great interest and intriguing. but would be much easier to do over a Lager and some beer nuts.

    I find myself writting/thinking/discussing this sort of thing whenever I can find the time too.

    one thing for sure... this was posted earlier in the thread...
    "I think that the problem is that to a lot of the people who post here the word art is a word that is loded with emotional baggage."

    that seems tantamount to saying "the problem with chicken is that its made up of only chicken"
    is emotion not one of the most integral parts of art?

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by billschwab
    I don't see why the discussion of mediocre, overdone artistic expression in photos is any less valid than discussion of a mediocre thesis on the Apparent Confusion of Artistic Expression.

    Look, I "grasp" symbolism. It's easy to attach symbolism to an overdone subject and call it new. A common crutch in art school. I'll quote you in your initial post "...show me something new!!!". It doesn't impress me when you back-up your degradation of "photographing "known subjects" until hell freezes over" by stating that there is some almighty symbolism in your photographs that to others are little more than beautifully executed visions of those same "known subjects".

    Bill
    Bill, It seems that you have taken offense that was not intended and certainly not interperted by some...so that makes me wonder why you are so damned sensitive. You grasp symbolism and yet you fail to be able to discuss it...What the heck is that about ? I have said all that I am going to say on this subject to you in view of your evident attitude on this...it is totally unproductive...there are those who want to discuss it and that will take place probably in a more private setting so that your sensitive feelings will not be offended. I wish you good day sir.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  8. #48
    Andy K's Avatar
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    For those of us who have never had any kind of schooling in art, and are simply enjoying making photographs that please us to look at, perhaps someone could post the rules as to what is artistic impression.

    <edit> I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely want to know.


    -----------My Flickr-----------
    Anáil nathrach, ortha bháis is beatha, do chéal déanaimh.

  9. #49
    roteague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky
    I don't think there was ANYTHING even remotely 'holier-than-thou' in his post. And yet many seem to be reacting in a heavily defensive way....
    I agree.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy K
    For those of us who have never had any kind of schooling in art, and are simply enjoying making photographs that please us to look at, perhaps someone could post the rules as to what is artistic impression.

    <edit> I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely want to know.
    Andy, that is what a discussion on the creative expression within photography would be about...there are no rules...but perhaps we could come to a fuller understanding of why we photograph and what our photographs tell about us...I encourage you to read the post that Gordon stated...it expresses in a very nice mature way what he sees and what I see as being a condition of our lives as photographers and creative artists.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com



 

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