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  1. #91
    billschwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    WHAT. And sell out. I'd feel so unclean.
    !!!!!

  2. #92
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    I heard once that the difference between art and pornography was a government grant Does this still apply?

    Personally I find people who ask the rationalle behind prices to be obnoxious - its not a case of a state run grocery store charging too much for the food you need with no choice (or car insurance). You look at the price, if you think its just - you pay it. If not, you go elsewhere. Or you offer the person less money - then the ball is in their court, they either take it or leave it. But why ask why? It actually is a bit annoying, not to mention even more pretentious than wine sipping and black wearing. The guy feels his "pitcher" is worth $800 - he is either right, or wrong. Trust me, if he is wrong, he will know that soon enough. If he is right (as in, his stuff sells), your opinion will matter none to him, as it damn well should in either case.
    The place where this whole exchange makes the photog look like an ass happens precisely when he justifies his prices by calling his work fine art. He should have just said that he believes they are worth that much and let the lady argue that with her wallet.
    As to the definition of Fine Art, I think the "Art" part you can apply by yourself based on the reason you are making the image. If its a creative pursuit rather than "here we are under the xmas tree", then it is inherently art. The "Fine" part is not really up to you. It gets to be applied by the same people who can apply the term "shit" to your work. And if you fancy yourself an artist, you bare your soul knowing this possibility.

    Peter.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    I won't argue with this ... I'm sure that you, being from the U.K., know quite a bit more than I do about the British "conditoned responses".

    I *did* know AB, though, and he was not pretending. That was a clear and honest statement on his part... He was, very nearly, amazed and ... uh ... "puzzled" at his success, and his status among the Art Dealers, and the ragged-ass public. I'll only say that he was not alone: if there was anything like a "common ground" among those who have "made it" ... it was this attitude - at varying strengths.
    Actually I don't think this sense of humility is at all a bad thing, or an assumed thing. I imagine that most of the writers/artists/photographers I admire most shared or share it. Certainly Jane Bown, who was mentioned recently on another thread; HCB of course. One of my siblings who's a successful artist in Australia! A friend of mine who is a gifted portrait painter. They all share a sense of surprise at any success, I suppose. That's fine and admirable and good.

    What I was trying to criticise (and perhaps not very clearly, or in rather a bitter and twisted way!) is that sense in which creative activity - in the U.K - is often unsupported. A by-product of this is that artists can appear self-deprecating when compared to those from possibly(?) more enlightened countries. A lack of arrogance about what you do and achieve is to be admired, but it saddens me if I think people feel undervalued in a wider sense.

  4. #94
    billschwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnashings
    ...happens precisely when he justifies his prices by calling his work fine art.
    Allegedly...

    Remember, only one of us was there and that person has not chimed-in since starting this whole thread. Apparently the photographer we are all talking over does come here as stated by the original poster who also presented a biased attitude that makes me question what really happened. I would still very much like to hear the photographer's side of this story.

    B.

  5. #95

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    peter

    you should know by now, some people just like to complain.

    if it isn't about the weather, it is about how some people sell photographs for less than $30 and if it isn't about that, it is about the people who sell photographs for $800 or more, or someone is an artist, or a "wannabe/sell-out". at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.

    i don't know what i am, i am just here for the ride.


    john


    Quote Originally Posted by gnashings
    I heard once that the difference between art and pornography was a government grant Does this still apply?

    Personally I find people who ask the rationalle behind prices to be obnoxious - its not a case of a state run grocery store charging too much for the food you need with no choice (or car insurance). You look at the price, if you think its just - you pay it. If not, you go elsewhere. Or you offer the person less money - then the ball is in their court, they either take it or leave it. But why ask why? It actually is a bit annoying, not to mention even more pretentious than wine sipping and black wearing. The guy feels his "pitcher" is worth $800 - he is either right, or wrong. Trust me, if he is wrong, he will know that soon enough. If he is right (as in, his stuff sells), your opinion will matter none to him, as it damn well should in either case.
    The place where this whole exchange makes the photog look like an ass happens precisely when he justifies his prices by calling his work fine art. He should have just said that he believes they are worth that much and let the lady argue that with her wallet.
    As to the definition of Fine Art, I think the "Art" part you can apply by yourself based on the reason you are making the image. If its a creative pursuit rather than "here we are under the xmas tree", then it is inherently art. The "Fine" part is not really up to you. It gets to be applied by the same people who can apply the term "shit" to your work. And if you fancy yourself an artist, you bare your soul knowing this possibility.

    Peter.
    Last edited by jnanian; 06-17-2006 at 11:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    silver magnets, trickle tanks sold
    artwork often times sold for charity
    PM me for details

  6. #96
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    My turn to kick it!

    (WARNING - MASSIVE GENERALIZATIONS TO FOLLOW)

    I'm looking at this from the perspective of non-affluence, as I've taken the lifestyle choice to be happy and humble. Next you have folks with disposable income; you know, a nice house, a couple cars, a fancy vacation every year. Then you have the ones the galleries prefer to snuggle up to; those with Disposable Income. They have a huge home, a vacation home, several cars at each residence, and maybe even a crewed yacht.

    This last group doesn't want to spend the time to seek out unknown photographers, and are willing to pay a premium - like 100% above what the photographer receives - to get a galleries stamp of approval regarding a photographers work.

    I can't wrap my head around this, because if I had that much money I would enjoy seeking out new and undiscovered photographers who needed the support, and sure wouldn't have a crew on any boat I owned! These folks are from a different world than I, and I'll happily answer their questions a hundred times over

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  7. #97
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    I keep getting strange looks when I hand out my business card:

    Clay Harmon
    Fine
    ART
    Photographs

    What gives?
    I just want to feel nostalgic like I used to.


    http://www.clayharmon.net - turnip extraordinaire

  8. #98
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    Perhaps a Fine Art Photograph is one that is meant to be appreciated on the merits contained within, with no back story or personal connection before the observation, and containing elements that promote a visceral individual response in the observer, that is personal to the individual, whom ever that may be. If it succeeds, it becomes what it purports to be, to that person.

    Or maybe it just means that you are invited to purchase it, and hang it on a wall, or place it within your collection, in hopes of appreciation, in observation or financially, or both. If it succeeds, others will appreciate your taste and savvy, through social or financial interaction.

    Or maybe it really doesn't mean much at all, and is just an affectation, aside from pointing out that it is not a snapshot taken by the grandmother of somebody's young nephew at a child's birthday party. (Unless somebody decides it is a Fine Art Photograph)

  9. #99
    Jim Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin
    I wonder...if someone who disdained the whole 'fine art thing' was happily (yet infrequently) selling their photographs at craft fairs for around $75.00 was approached by a gallery owner who could increase their sales, and raise the amount they got for each print to $400.00...what would they say?

    Murray
    For me? Yes, if it didn't involve so much work that it became drudgery. That would happen quickly. However, I'd rather continue selling 11x14 archivally mounted, matted, and framed B&W prints for $40 to people who appreciate them than to work hard to get rich in a snobbish market. Photographs and other prints can bring affordable pleasure to many. Also, in the local market I don't have to wear a suit to impress people that I am an arteeest.

  10. #100
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Jones
    For me? Yes, if it didn't involve so much work that it became drudgery. That would happen quickly. However, I'd rather continue selling 11x14 archivally mounted, matted, and framed B&W prints for $40 to people who appreciate them than to work hard to get rich in a snobbish market.
    Hi Jim,

    Don't get me wrong here (because by choice, thus far, I'm an invisible nobody in the art world and haven't sold locally for a while) but would you really rather have your photographs go unseen in the greater scheme of things? Wouldn't you want to see where your images land amongst your peers? Don't you feel what you have to say has more than a local interest?

    I don't know how old you are or how many jobs you've had, but I'm in my mid 40's and have found that every job comes with compromises. I'm a letter carrier right now, which is THE BEST JOB I'VE EVER HAD! Yet...it takes time away from my being in the forest photographing.

    I would gladly exchange my sure-thing job for an almost-sure-thing chance at being what I really am...a fine art photographer. I use that label because I'm not a portrait, school, mug shot, architectural, wedding, mall, passport, stock, sports, or forensic photographer...not that there's anything wrong with any of those if that's what you want to be!. Fine art photographer is the best label to describe what I do, which is to only photograph that which amazes me.

    It's our choice...sure-thing money for a job that takes us away from what we're meant to do, or tedious hours in the darkroom balanced with free time to photograph, and rubbing elbows with people with complicated lives who wish to purchase a piece of our way of seeing.

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.



 

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