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  1. #21
    arigram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham
    So then, why not post the story about how Greece has been criminally prosecuting a bunch of middle-aged Brit tourists who were taking pictures of commercial airliners?
    You just want to start a fight because a "foreigner dared to mess with your country". Don't be immature. I won't play your game.
    This story about Greece is old and well documented and discussed.
    Anyway, I am not a nationalist and care not to defend any country, let alone this one. You are new here, you have probably missed all the comments I have made about Greece and probably my recent thread about photographing a demonstration and its photos. I have been harassed by the police in Greece and I am one of the last to defend them.

    All I did is point to a source of discussion about the rights of photographers. I did not even comment. If I wanted to hurl propaganda against the US I could do better than that.

    So discuss like an adult and let personal and rediculous nationalistic attacks on the side.
    Please.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
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  2. #22

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    I find it rather dishonest to equate a couple of individual police officer's over-the-line actions with a recent universal erosion of freedom.

    As a news photographer, I was threatened with arrest numerous time over the years for taking pictures or just for being present with cameras. That was as much as 30 years ago. And I remember the "old guys" at the paper telling stories of how cops had threatened them 30 years before that. Some actually did get arrested. We just considered it a normal part of doing the job. Today, it's a media event. Of course, we didn't have 24/7 reporting from thousands of information sources, hungry to inform the public of every event in the course of human existence.

    Sometimes I long for the days of the Huntley-Brinkley and Walter Cronkite 15-minutes of national news reports once a day. I might have the right to know everything but I really don't want to know everything.

  3. #23

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    live free or die!

  4. #24

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    Freedom doesn't mean that no one can question our actions or intent. Freedom doesn't mean that we can't or won't be accused of wrong-doing. Freedom means that there are checks and balances to aid us when these things happen.

    Police don't single out people with cameras. They single out people across the board. It's not like they are out there hunting down everyone with a camera or slapping the cuffs on everyone they see with a camera. I've been spotted with a camera dozens of times and never has a law enforcement agent ever questioned me, let alone yelled at me or slapped cuffs on me.

    That article seems to hint at the police having told the guy to go inside prior to having cuffed him. The quickest way to find yourself in cuffs is to blatantly defy the police and ignore a request to go inside. I wonder if the guy went inside to retrieve the camera phone after having been asked to go inside. I can understand how that might prompt the police to place the person in custody.

    Lee Shively makes some good points as does df cardwell in mentioning how the typical person may react when a stranger is caught photographing them in an awkward moment.

  5. #25
    arigram's Avatar
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    Although, like the other journalists have pointed out, its expected from the police to harass, hurt or arrest you in that line of business, I disagree that it should be tolerated or been accepted in a democratic society.
    If you are not obstractring the police work or endangering anyone, why should one be arrested for taking photographs in public even if they are police officers. I thought they exist to assist and protect lawfull citizens not to harm them if they are not over stepping the lines.
    If I am a journalist (or anyone for that matter) should I refrain from taking a photograph by the threat of being arrested or harmed if that does not violate any laws?
    If I am asked kindly it's up to me to decide to be curteous and respect the privacy of an individual and not to photograph them, like I often do with all people.
    But it is not illegal to take a photograph in public and it should not lead to an arrest.

    I carry a journalist ID that clearly states that police officers are to assist me to fullfill my duty. If I let the police do their job and they let me do my job, what's the matter?
    Even so for a civilian that is not "protected" by such a card.

    Does the goverment need to start issuing photography permits? If one can carry a gun, why not a camera?
    aristotelis grammatikakis
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  6. #26

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    "If you are not obstractring the police work or endangering anyone, why should one be arrested for taking photographs in public even if they are police officers. I thought they exist to assist and protect lawfull citizens not to harm them if they are not over stepping the lines."

    Well, I actually agree but...

    This would have to do with the perspective of the police vs the perspective of the photographer. The police officer's view of what is obstructing or endangering is what counts at the scene. He is in charge. You might be proven correct when the case goes before the court system but you risk being arrested in the interim.

    Also, police do not exist to assist and protect, despite the romantic ideal and the slogans on the doors of police cars all over the place. They are there to uphold the law. If it's a bad law, a crappy law, a law that stinks so bad they have to hold their noses to uphold it and they hate doing it--it's what they are supposed to do. If they can assist and protect in the process, it's a side benefit.

  7. #27
    arigram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Shively
    The police officer's view of what is obstructing or endangering is what counts at the scene... He is in charge... If it's a bad law, a crappy law, a law that stinks so bad...
    So you are telling me that a police officer has the absolute power to do whatever he feels like doing even if its ultimely to harm a lawfull innocent?
    Its very common here in Greece for the police to target journalists and photographers, beating them up, breaking their equipment and arresting them with no charge.
    You agree with that?
    Which democratic laws state that is unlawfull to take a photograph in public?
    Or is any law ok, as long it is a law?
    How is a photograph harmfull to a police officer?
    Unless ofcourse (s)he is doing something something unlawfull or brutal and has reasons to object to a documentation of his actions.
    Like it happens on demonstrations in Greece where the riot police will use ten year old expired tear gas, hold their rods by the reverse and hitting with the hard handle, targeting the people with their flare, gas or rubber bullet guns, shouting obsenities and doing things to provoke riots and so on.
    Or maybe taking pictures of them cracking the sculls of peacefull students or taking pictures of faces of pleasure when they do so.
    I am sure then the police officers would have any right to hurt the photographer for even being there to take such documentaries.
    When I write the international news for the newspaper and hunt for photos I see things like that often in Nepal, in Pakistan, in Iran, in Israel, in Ecuador, but also in France, in Germany, in the US...

    You are quite right. The police officer is in charge, he can arrest you for obscuring the pavement, smash your camera and beat you up for resisting arrest and hold you with no real charges.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
    www.arigram.gr
    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
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  8. #28
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    Ari, you really do like to twist an argument.

    HEY ! Get over here fast, there's probably a highly paid position in government
    with your talent for 'spin' !
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  9. #29

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    Lee Shively...Also, police do not exist to assist and protect, despite the romantic ideal and the slogans on the doors of police cars all over the place. They are there to uphold the law. If it's a bad law, a crappy law, a law that stinks so bad they have to hold their noses to uphold it and they hate doing it--it's what they are supposed to do .
    And if what they do (vis a vis photographers in particular say) is not based on even a bad law - but they do it anyway, even if in fact it violates the law, what then?

  10. #30
    arigram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell
    Ari, you really do like to twist an argument.
    Care to elaborate?
    aristotelis grammatikakis
    www.arigram.gr
    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
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