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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing
    I would have had to have been quite a prodigy - I was born in 1956
    Nice story Matt. Maybe someday (in 20 years) your kids will be able to go back to that old studio and do the same thing.

    Regards,
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddym
    This is not hate mail, as I don't hate you nor anyone else. But I must take exception to your charge that I, or any other photographer, is unethical because we do not part with our own copyrighted material. I have 28 years' worth of negatives in my archives; some are portraits, some are weddings, and many are photos of ballet performances, which is a large part of my professional work. I go to great lengths to maintain them all under archival conditions. I have never thrown away any negatives from a professional shoot. Far from "ludicrous," I consider that I am performing a valuable service for my past clients. Although not many clients do come back to me for prints after years have passed, some do, and I am able to provide them for a resonable price. Yes, I charge for that service, and I see nothing unethical about doing so. After all, they are my property, and I have gone to the trouble and expense to maintain them in archival condition. Is this not a service worth recompense?

    No, I do not consider these negatives stock material. I do not reproduce nor sell them as stock without a written model release from the clients. Personally, I resent your charge of unethical conduct, and I feel that you owe your fellow photographers on this website an apology.
    Well, I suppose you can feel this way if you wish. My comments and my position for that matter in no way are meant to infer that I am holier than thou. If you want to consider that an opology, so be it. But I am entitled to my position, and feel strongly toward it. I believe this thread was started with a question concerning how long a negatives should be maintained. I provided my position, that is my right as a member of this forum.And i maintain that placing a time limit on work and then destroying it because it is no longer profitable to you is..... well, I'll leave off the descriptor.
    Unlike many in this thread I believe that nothing is ever all yours.

    I can recognize your degree of distress given your post. It seems that your approach to archiving is professional. For that I commend you. You're not throwing images out. I think thats good.
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky
    What is this guy, some kind of TROLL? That's ridiculous! Check out standard policies at the ASMPs website. No self-respecting photographer would EVER part with their originals - unless paid INCREDIBLY well.
    Ah... the hate mail. If I'm the troll your the ignorant.... oops almost let myself drop to your level.
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

  4. #54
    Dave Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don sigl
    Dave:

    The above statement cuts to the heart of the difference between you and I. I don't see photography as just a business, or images as just a product. I doubt any of your customers do either. For me, and a lot of other people it is much more than that. The emotional attachment you so easily disregard to some extent reflects on all photographers and the medium as a whole. Whether you believe it or not, your business does not operate in a vacuum. I find it disappointing that I (to some extent) must overcome this mentality as a preconception with some of my clients (Mostly professional and semi professional models who generally care about the way their likeness will be portrayed, and have a general distrust of photographers).

    I find it amazing that you don't seem to have any inkling or understanding of that. I disagree with your position, but I'm not surprised that you, making your business your priority, have chosen to take it.
    We clearly have taken different roads. Photography is much more than a business for me, and the images you state as "product" are nothing of the sort when it comes to a customer's personal event.

    Regards,

    Don,

    I never said the customer thinks it is just a product, to the customer it is their life, that is why we DISCUSS everything and aspect before the deal is signed.

    Other than this discussion, you know nothing about me, and I do find it pretty amazing how someone who is so far removed from me and my business would even have the thought to question the ethics of other photographers, I have been shooting pictures for part of my income, since before I got out of highschool and have always maintained the utmost respect for my customers and their wants needs and desires, that is why I am 100% upfront with them and they appriciate that fact that I am. This has nothing to do with ethics at all, it has to do with the way business is conducted, and if you as a photographer are 100% upfront with the client, and they are aware of the terms of an agreement, then there is no problems at all.

    Why do I have to archived images, is this part of the unwritten bible of photography that they forgot to give me in school? I have always given the client the option when it comes to the negatives, they are told how they will be handled, how they will be stored in the 1 year that I keep them on file and what is done with them once the contract has expired, they have the options and they make the choices on what will happen..how much more ethical can you get then to be 100% truthful and upfront with a client? Just because I run a business, does not mean I don't care about the clients happyness, that is why they get 110% of my best when I do a job for them, their pictures are taken with them in mind, they are printed to exacting specifications on the best materials, and they are delivered in a professional manner to ensure they are happy. If the client does not choose to purchase the whole package and are happy with prints, it is their choice. In the area of the country I work in, there are many photographers that follow this same business model and we don't have hundreds of customers running around unhappy.

    You don't like the way I do business, that is fine and I accept that, but I don't see where you have the right to question the ethics of other photographers.

    Have a great day, I am off to take pictures for a few hours.

    Dave

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    What others do with their is their business. But the question was asked and I gave my opinion. Michael
    Thanks for the clarification Michael.
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Parker
    Don,

    I never said the customer thinks it is just a product, to the customer it is their life, that is why we DISCUSS everything and aspect before the deal is signed.

    Other than this discussion, you know nothing about me, and I do find it pretty amazing how someone who is so far removed from me and my business would even have the thought to question the ethics of other photographers, I have been shooting pictures for part of my income, since before I got out of highschool and have always maintained the utmost respect for my customers and their wants needs and desires, that is why I am 100% upfront with them and they appriciate that fact that I am. This has nothing to do with ethics at all, it has to do with the way business is conducted, and if you as a photographer are 100% upfront with the client, and they are aware of the terms of an agreement, then there is no problems at all.

    Why do I have to archived images, is this part of the unwritten bible of photography that they forgot to give me in school? I have always given the client the option when it comes to the negatives, they are told how they will be handled, how they will be stored in the 1 year that I keep them on file and what is done with them once the contract has expired, they have the options and they make the choices on what will happen..how much more ethical can you get then to be 100% truthful and upfront with a client? Just because I run a business, does not mean I don't care about the clients happyness, that is why they get 110% of my best when I do a job for them, their pictures are taken with them in mind, they are printed to exacting specifications on the best materials, and they are delivered in a professional manner to ensure they are happy. If the client does not choose to purchase the whole package and are happy with prints, it is their choice. In the area of the country I work in, there are many photographers that follow this same business model and we don't have hundreds of customers running around unhappy.

    You don't like the way I do business, that is fine and I accept that, but I don't see where you have the right to question the ethics of other photographers.

    Have a great day, I am off to take pictures for a few hours.

    Dave
    Dave:

    Always nice to get such a detailed thought out reply. I think its safe to say that we differ considerably on this topic. Other than that, You're right, I don't know anything about you. But it is the ethics of the business model that I question. I don't have to know you or anyone personally to do so. And I think I have every right to question it. Having worked commercially and representatively (for galleries) for 25 years, I think I have a little bit of personal knowledge on photography to warrant an opinion. You seem to find that amazing. But then you don't know me either.

    Regards,

    Wish I was out shooting right now.
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

  7. #57
    raucousimages's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses. This is not hate mail, just heated debate.

    Thanks John
    DIGITAL IS FOR THOSE AFRAID OF THE DARK.

  8. #58
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    What is partly missing in this discussion is what is the emotional component of the work product.

    As a "family" type photographer the photographs have a built in emotional element to them. I've had lots of clients that have lost family members through accidents and age and whatever. I've had a guy that had his motor home roll over him while he worked on it. Lots of family horror stories. So when a family "needs" another picture from the "archives" I have it there for them.

    I would hardly expect that type of emotional component built into a commercial photographers work. Most are simply product shots that may or may not have a shelf life. In that case dumping the negs after a period of time would probably be appropriate.

    One other aspect is about a thread we had a few years ago about the archives that a recently deceased photographer had kept and his heirs going through the old pictures had found a wonderful record of pictures he'd taken over the years of the city he'd lived in. If looked at in 5-10 years meant nothing but looking at them 50 years later they were magical.

    MIchael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  9. #59
    eddym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don sigl
    Well, I suppose you can feel this way if you wish. My comments and my position for that matter in no way are meant to infer that I am holier than thou. If you want to consider that an opology, so be it. But I am entitled to my position, and feel strongly toward it. I believe this thread was started with a question concerning how long a negatives should be maintained. I provided my position, that is my right as a member of this forum.And i maintain that placing a time limit on work and then destroying it because it is no longer profitable to you is..... well, I'll leave off the descriptor.
    Unlike many in this thread I believe that nothing is ever all yours.

    I can recognize your degree of distress given your post. It seems that your approach to archiving is professional. For that I commend you. You're not throwing images out. I think thats good.
    I think you and I are on the same page regarding the discarding of negatives. Where we differ is on the keeping of them as opposed to giving them to the clients. I'm willing to respect your view as long as you respect mine... and don't call me unethical.
    Eddy McDonald
    www.fotoartes.com
    Eschew defenestration!

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddym
    I think you and I are on the same page regarding the discarding of negatives. Where we differ is on the keeping of them as opposed to giving them to the clients. I'm willing to respect your view as long as you respect mine... and don't call me unethical.
    I think the purpose of this forum is to share information and discuss different points of view. I expected to receive a majority of opinions that differed from my own on this subject. Thats fine. As much communication that has gone back and forth here, I find it interesting that there are such differences in interpretation as to what was said. I don't think I ever called anyone personally unethical. What I question is the idea that it is OK to keep the images in the business context we have been discussing. We can argue this point ad infinitum, which is also fine, although eventually I think it will argue itself out.
    In no way has my intention been to disrespect the right for all of the individuals here to maintain their own opinions. At the same time, I don't feel there is any need for me to apologize for my own.

    Regards,
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

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