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  1. #21
    JBrunner's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Robert Hall;367173]You're not going to get any firm answers here.

    I've seen it more in commercial work. A relative of mine had a photographic concept that was "re-shot" about 6 years later by a local photographer.

    The real problem is the difference between the morality of it and what case law and copyright law have to say about it.

    Most of the images from which I make money have been shot many times over. Even with the attempts of some well known photographers to try and copyright their tripod holes, I hope my images look a little different.

    QUOTE]

    I do allot of commercial work. Sometimes the agency will actually produce a photograph from someplace and say "we want to copy this"

    Plagarism-no, you can't plagarize when youre doing a new shoot, because it is new material, however derivative it might be. Words, and copyrights are a different matter.

    Unoriginal and bigtime pathetic-yes
    Last edited by JBrunner; 09-21-2006 at 02:51 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #22

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    "I know they are reading this, and hopefully it will end the ethics question as to what the one is doing."

    Ahh, the Socratic Method in action...

    I hope that if you have knowledge (i.e. historical timing or otherwise) that could be posted in that thread, then perhaps it would be beneficial to do so.

    What is ethical - sitting on the sidelines and taking no action when others are being injured, or jumping in and helping to set the record straight.

    (You may be doing that already in the other thread, I don't know.)

    Anyway, I hate bullshitters and rarely miss to opportunity to point it out if I can.

    Kirk

  3. #23

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    Woohoo I just got back from a seminar dealing with this exact thing. If the process was written up using exactly or very close to your exact words that is plagerism. That being said, the least they could have done was give you credit. But from the sound of it this person is only guilty of being sleazy.

    Maybe two years ago (lost the citation when a hard drive crashed) the was a case where a photographer was contracted to take an image for a CD cover. After shooting it he gave the folks his bill and they balked. He took his image and left. The CD showed up on the shelves with an image that looked so much like the one he shot that he filed a lawsuit. The company fought it and lost.

    You might remember I had the same issue about a year ago or so when an idea I talked about here showed up in the gallery. It pissed me off, but there was nothing I could do about it, except realize that this was no place to discuss possible projects.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  4. #24
    Dave Wooten's Avatar
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    Plagiarize (Plagiarism)

    1. To steal and pass off as one's own (the ideas or words of another)

    2. To present as one's own an idea or product derived from as existing
    source. from Webster's seventh....my 1965 edition with no covers.

    As a public and private high school and college teacher for over 30 years I often hoped any original idea I might have used in a teaching or sharing situation would nurture further interest and hopefully inspire a student to "take the ball and run with it". The greatest reward is of course in watching those students put new life and input into the idea taking it to greater levels than I as humble teacher could ever hope to do...

    The information freely given in a teaching situation....does the student have to reference the teacher in use of the information given, no, certainly not. However, had I written a text on the subject in discussion with documented original information i.e. formulas, economic theories, etc. patented design etc... I would probably have some sustainable copywrite protection, and of course should be noted when quoted or used as reference. Can you put your name on my book? Certainly not.

    We make platinum prints, using a method created by another, do we always have to acknowledge, no we do not, can we tweek it a bit, yes, are we being original maybe yes and maybe no...nothing is new under the sun....but if you can print platinum better than the original inventor, as Dick Arentz does, you document your knowledge on the subject and publish it, that is your argument if one is needed..Now of course I can not put my name on Dick's book or even a chapter, however could I publish my results using the Na2 method, you bet, and if I used information from Dick's book, I would have to not only give credit and reference but probably also get permission.

    If one can show value lost, one might have a case. The best bet is to publish one s original concepts and ideas putting them to good marketable use to get the best protection. Even if one has a patent, the law does not protect you if you set on it...you have to act on it and defend on it. Information given via spoken word will be construed as freely given and that here is maybe where the smoke is veiling.

    What Roger Hicks has written a bit before is probably right on the mark in this situation.

    All said and done, it is pretty low to truly take from another an original concept and pass it on as one s own, that is plagiarism. The strength one has is in being able to prove that it is a new and totally original concept and that it had been presented in a venue with form and content as such..To make use of an idea in a new way is not.

    Remember Andy's Campbell Soup Cans? Remember Andy's portraits of M. Monroe.

    Then of course some folks are just scoundrels.....what s a body to do?
    Last edited by Dave Wooten; 09-21-2006 at 02:56 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: spelin

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie View Post
    I have recently been wondering about this subject. Is it plagarism to share your knowledge about something you do, then have that person use it, and after claim in the broader world and in news media that it was their process? Or is it being happy that your idea and process was used by another to further photography? Is it doing similar work, IE if you were a landscape photographer, and having someone else claim you plargarized their photo by shooting a scene that was also landscape? It is a broad subject, and one I have no real answer to. As photographers I would like your input. What is really photographic plagarism? If there is real plagarism being done, what do we do about it? Do we expose the person(s) or do we just sit back and let it happen?

    Aggie,

    I would pose the question my own, personal, unique way:

    "Is it plagarism to share your knowledge about something you do, then have that person use it, and after claim in the broader world and in news media that it was their process?"

    Sorry, couldn't resist...

    I hope this all resolves somewhat reasonably for you, Aggie.

    Matt
    Last edited by MattCarey; 09-21-2006 at 03:27 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #26
    Travis Nunn's Avatar
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    Well, what do you do when you've been working on a series for a book for 2 or 3 years and then you discover someone else has already done something similar? So similar in fact that 3 or 4 prints are almost interchangeable. That's the issue I'm looking at now.

    I know I didn't plagiarize him because I had no knowledge of his work until well after I started, I'm not worried about that, but still the fact remains that if someone were to compare the two, it would make me look like I took his ideas and copied them. How do you deal with that situation?

    My apologies to Aggie, I don't mean to try and hijack your thread, but I've been bothered by this for a while and this seems like a good place to bring it up.
    ____________________________________________
    Searching my way to perplexion

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_nunn View Post
    Well, what do you do when you've been working on a series for a book for 2 or 3 years and then you discover someone else has already done something similar? So similar in fact that 3 or 4 prints are almost interchangeable. That's the issue I'm looking at now.

    I know I didn't plagiarize him because I had no knowledge of his work until well after I started, I'm not worried about that, but still the fact remains that if someone were to compare the two, it would make me look like I took his ideas and copied them. How do you deal with that situation?

    My apologies to Aggie, I don't mean to try and hijack your thread, but I've been bothered by this for a while and this seems like a good place to bring it up.
    If you independently arrived at the idea or concept - then you're not plagarising.

    On a much less grand scale, I had a similar experience a year or so ago. During some beautiful, if icy cold winter days, I took to wandering around the Columbia County countryside ( where Copake is) and shoot the exterior of the many clapboard churches.

    I was framing a shot outside one on a bright Sunday PM. The minister came out and asked if I'd like to shoot the interior. I declined indicating that I was only interested in the exteriors.

    Then she dropped the bomb: "You know, there's a photo book of Columbia County churches available. You can get it a the local bookstore in nearby Chatham!".

    Not to say I was planning a book or something - but it rang home the fact that few "concepts" are original!

  8. #28
    SuzanneR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    If you independently arrived at the idea or concept - then you're not plagarising.

    On a much less grand scale, I had a similar experience a year or so ago. During some beautiful, if icy cold winter days, I took to wandering around the Columbia County countryside ( where Copake is) and shoot the exterior of the many clapboard churches.

    I was framing a shot outside one on a bright Sunday PM. The minister came out and asked if I'd like to shoot the interior. I declined indicating that I was only interested in the exteriors.

    Then she dropped the bomb: "You know, there's a photo book of Columbia County churches available. You can get it a the local bookstore in nearby Chatham!".

    Not to say I was planning a book or something - but it rang home the fact that few "concepts" are original!
    So true... there is very little truly original work out there.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    "Ahh, the Socratic Method in action..."
    But then again, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

    (Sorry for the pun... I think it is my own.)

    ((And another pun variation is: "You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead." Stan Laurel))

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    But then again, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
    ((And another pun variation is: "You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead." Stan Laurel))
    Or even
    'You can lead a whore to water but you cannot make her think'

    or was it
    'you can lead a whore to the alter but you cannot make her think' - ??
    Dorothy Parker ?? - Can't remember

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