Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 69,905   Posts: 1,521,288   Online: 1199
      
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 42
  1. #11
    jstraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Topeka, Kansas
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,703
    Images
    42
    Quote Originally Posted by mhv View Post
    If I take the theoretical part of your question "should we represent things as they are or not" then I'd say you're asking the wrong question. If you do or do not represent things as they are, the APUG police will not come after you, and you need not to be examined or sent to a reeducation camp. The question is "do I want to represent generally accepted ideals of truth or a more subjective point of view?"

    Photography isn't truth, in and of itself, and that has been beaten to death, woken up with cold water, and re-beaten again over photo's history. However, we have established standards of truthfulness (truthiness?) in photo because it has proved reliable in many things like forensic investigation, etc.

    Deep down, there is nothing that precludes "falsehood" in photo. I say falsehood in quotation because it's more about make-believe than truth conditions.

    Now go give a good kick to Plato in his cave, and worry yourself not my son.
    Word.

    "One thing that sets photography apart from other art forms is that it has the ability to capture subjects as they are."

    What a great illusion is this, notion that photography is objective.

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    15,903
    i see nothing wrong or unethical about making the photographs the bride asked for. that is what she paid you for, isn't it?


    this kind of reminds me of a printer i once took my work to.
    i arrived in his lab negatives in hand and a proof sheet.
    i had a crop made and said "i need 1/8" borders so they match the rest of my client's portfolio" ...

    he critiqued my work, told me the client's choice of crop was wrong, and then told me the photograph needed to be printed without borders (full bleed). i said " please print it the way my client asked it to be printed"
    when i picked up the prints, they were printed as HE wanted, not as I had asked. i didn't pay for the prints, took the negatives somewhere else, and never went back to him again ...

  3. #13
    blansky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Wine country in Northern California
    Posts
    5,029
    A few points:

    Photographing people in a "flattering" manner is no more an illusion than photographing them in an unflattering manner.

    What is reality? Nothing more than a perception.

    A camera mounted on a building like a security camera can make photographs that are "unmanipulated". I would hope that with my brain, craft and talent I would choose to do more than that.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Aurora, IL
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    1,936
    Just a thought, may be you can hire a model?

  5. #15
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Montréal (QC)
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    4,351
    Images
    132
    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    Word.

    "One thing that sets photography apart from other art forms is that it has the ability to capture subjects as they are."

    What a great illusion is this, notion that photography is objective.
    The darnest thing about this problematic conception of photo as an "objective" form of art is that someone with a dedicated mind and perfected skill could make a painting that looks exactly the same as a photograph, so much that a casual viewer wouldn't see the difference.

    If there was something about objectivity in photo, it would not be in the representational means (i.e. Albertian perspective, proportionality of gray tones to light ratios, etc), but in the process itself. One could argue that there was a physical being which reflected light and then impressed a sensitive surface. But in the end, the result could still be indistinguishable from the possible painting I alluded to above.

    So for me, at the deep down bottom of the question, there is no such thing as truth in photography. However, there is a variable (0-99.99...%) level of trust that I can ascribe to the relationship between a photo and an actual state of affairs based on the process: it's actually easier to produce an image that will give me information about its subject via photography than it is to make one that gives false one (i.e. montage is harder than snapshot). On the other hand, I don't think it's harder to make a drawing that is innaccurate than to make one that is accurate, and perhaps that's why a drawing does not have the same forensic weight as a photo.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

    My APUG Portfolio

  6. #16
    Daniel_OB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Mississauga, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    420
    Photography is a mass medium, practiced by just anyone: by grandpa that once in her life had a camera in hands, well she shot and she is a photographer. Passers that snap someone because no tripod in camera owner, well he snapped so he is a photographer, HC-B he is a photographer,… just anyone is photographer today. However this so far does not means that anyone is relevant for just anything around photography. This is a point no one will ever accept. Evan and more to one that own Nikon F5 you tell him he is not an artist, I walk away. Art is work of mass (not for me) not an artist because everyone also has its own definition for just anything around photography (e.g. what is art, what is artist, what is photography, is photography truth,….). This “photographers” structure (car repearers, opticians, icecreem sellers, pro-boxers,…) is a reason for so many discussions about well known thinks, discussion that leads nowhere, discussion that no one need,…. This is the reason that people well educated around the matter just cannot see reason for discussions on internet (which is not useful - proved again and again).

    As someone put in this thread "Photography isn't truth, in and of itself, and that has been beaten to death, woken up with cold water, and re-beaten again over photo's history."

    By who it is “beaten to death”? by people that own a photo camera…

    One of property of photogtaphy is truthfulness BUT truthfulness in photography is misunderstood in its root. Walking to universe dead due to thermodynamic law, there is no such think as truth. There is even nothing. No existence at all at very end. However we have definitions for meaning of many words in accepted world, and they make as to exist. Art historians say “photography is not COMPLETELY reproduction of reality”. This is very different things. Reallity consist of 3-dimensional things and has 4 dimension (time as 4th dim). Photograph is 2-dimensional object (lack 3rd dim, or walk around the object) and has no time as dimension. That is meaning of COMPLETELY. Brain of human, using a photograph, can reconstruct the event into 3 dim using experience, and can reconstruct time using brain ability. But this is human involvement. This is why photography ever existed. If photography is investigated 200 years earlier it will never see day light. No one was after the system (that yielded photography) but after a new art form. However businessmans saw oportunity and things got where they are today. But it does not change anything of photography's properties.

    Photograph is one stroke art (talking about art photography), painting and carving is multithousands stroke “art”. Many things (or arts) are in between (e.g. drawing, engraving, water color, …). What more srokes one ads to photograph he is going away from photography toward other end (painting). However what that added strokes are defines one is still within the frame of photography or not. Similar with any other art.

    And what is photography is very clearly defined by S. Herschel. However photography for “ALL PEOPLE” is a picture on the paper where a camera is involved, and this is all grandpa (see above) knows and is based on her past experience and lack of interest for the definition. Many definitions are derived from this one.

    So
    One of photography inherent property IS truthfulness. Even and more, a photograph is “biggest” truthfulness human ever investigated. Photographs can be “changed” but one should KNOW where to stop to keep his work still within photography. Moving finger is not enough knowledge. AGAIN picture on the paper with camera involved is not a photograph always. Well tell to … , I walk away.

    No other art form suffers from misunderstanding of medium’s inherent properties and its limitations as photography does. Well who cares? Be happy.

    www.Leica-R.com
    Last edited by Daniel_OB; 09-27-2006 at 11:53 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #17
    Lopaka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    758
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Parker View Post
    I have been shooting weddings for a number of years now and always try to fullfill the couples wishes, after all, I also need to eat, many brides would like something different on their wedding day, I don't really consider it much different than the bride paying a hair stylist or a make up artist to create something that is different that what might actually be true, after all, that is why the glamor shots company did as good as they did for quite a long time, they created an illusion, I won't digitally manipulate an image and my clients know it, but I will use my skills to fullfill the wishes of the paying client. When I decided to be a photographer for hire, I had to put my feelings in the back ground, although, I do make suggestions. But as a photographer who receives money on contract from a client, as long as it is not illegal, my job is to document based on their desires, if I want to be artsy, I need to not shoot for money, which I do quite often...

    Dave
    Yup.

    Bob
    "I always take a camera, That way I never have to say 'Gee, look at that - I wish I had a camera'" -Joe Clark, H.B.S.S.

  8. #18
    Lopaka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    758
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller View Post

    Besides in today's world the bill for the photographer usually lasts longer than the marriage.
    Sometimes true. I once had a wedding client that broke up before taking delivery of the album. It sat on the back shelf for 7 years. Then they got back together and decided they wanted the original wedding pictures, paid the balance and picked it up. Good timing - it was about to be incinerated.

    Bob
    "I always take a camera, That way I never have to say 'Gee, look at that - I wish I had a camera'" -Joe Clark, H.B.S.S.

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    306
    Images
    26
    There is no such thing as a literal photograph. Anything "As is" still needs to go process through the medium and the personality (intelligence?) of the individual making the photograph. You or I could not possibly create a universally real image.
    I once read about an exhibit where you were asked to look into a box. The inside was completely black. There was nothing to see or any way to judge the size or depth of the interior. It could have been a foot deep or as wide as a light year. Then you were asked to move a lever at the top of the box. The lever lowered a chrome wand into the blackness. The wand was brilliantly lit. It turns out the box was not empty at all. On the contrary, it was filled with an intense light.
    The physics is so strange, I mean, who really knows what a photon is? And how can it be what it is? A Messenger of reflection.
    The exhibit demonstrated the irony of our visual reality. What it shows us is that we have no concrete visual understanding of the universe. All that we see...is reflection.
    How can we say anything we see is true? If you plunge a stick into a pool of water, you can see it bend. But physically, it is not bent at all. What you see is the reflection of the stick in refracted light. We all know the stick did not physically change shape.
    Look at the Heisenberg uncertainty priciple. Simply stated there is no way to know the exact position and velocity of anything. The reason: The act of measurement alters the existence. The act of conciousness detrermines reality.
    Don Sigl
    www.drs-fineartphoto.com

  10. #20
    copake_ham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    NYC or Copake or Tucson
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    4,092
    Images
    56
    The bride was a potential client. She was entering into a contract with you for services, and told you what her terms and conditions were for you to get her business.

    If you wanted her business, then you had to accept her terms and conditions. Which you did. So, you were contractually obligated to perform your tasks under those terms and conditions.

    If you felt otherwise, you could (should) have turned down her business. But once agreed upon, you had no choice but to comply with the contractual terms.

    Which you did. Remember, you were hired for a specific service, and it wasn't to record her "AS -IS".

    As to "recording AS-IS for posterity" - not to worry. I'm sure a lot of her friends and relatives took all kinds of amateurish snapshots showing all kinds of warts, pimples, red-eye, over-exposure etc. Even the ones who used digis probably don't know how to fix things in PS (and don't have the time to do so anyway!)

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin