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  1. #11
    Pastiche's Avatar
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    Jim - some item:item thoughts...


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn View Post
    If you want to make a photograph a unique piece of art, . . .. snip
    Nope - this is exactly what I wish to avoid... making a "unique" THING .. . besides that which is the collection of hues, tones, values, reflectance/transmittance per se. i.e. the image, not the medium, is what I see as unique and irreproducible. The prints - they are carriers for the information gathered in the "capture". (more to follow on prints)



    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn View Post
    The reason for multiple prints is to either get your work out in front of a larger crowd or make money.
    Well.. I can see how this statement arises.. but I think the more fundamental aspect of multiple prints is that it is in the nature of the medium to allow for multiple copies of the original negative to be made.. i.e. that plurality of prints, and the subsequent way in which they have been handled by the market, is dictated by the medium, not vice versa. Consider that some photogrpahic processes don't yield multiples... yet find their way into and through the market just fine


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn View Post
    As far as what is the "art" of an image, the final print or the subject captured, there are two ways of looking at it.
    I'm sorry, I missed the "TWO" in two ways of looking at it... I'm only seeing a description of two aspects of creating images...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn View Post
    Actually, the final creation of a sculpture, painting, photograph, etc is only a residue of the process we call art.
    I do, in fact, mostly agree here.. However, I'd say that it is the goal of much art to inspire in it's viewer a moment of artistic understanding... a "sympathetic" responce/recognition/understanding . .. so true, the art object IS a residue of something formative and artistic.. but it's also often intended to create a spark in the observer....

    Actually, this dives straight at the heart of the conceptualist's concerns... because part of what is being gotten at is that the formative artistic moment still exists, as well as the sympathetic reaction/understanding in the viewer.. but there is no object... there is no "medium" .. . only thoughts... which, if you think about it, makes for a very elegant argument for the notion that ART is NOT in this or that combination of materials... it's something that leaps from one mind to another.. it's a kind of perception... attention... consideration.. aprehencion... appraisal . .. experience.. mood... feeling.

    Which is where I get off again - not making physical objects d'art. The message is NOT in the medium.. it's in the image.

    (unless one looks at the medium's manipulations AS part of the message.. and so, by negating the "original object d'art", a nuance is being added to the work.. catch 22- and now the medium {here: a lack-there-of}, becomes part of the message.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn View Post
    I don't think you can seperate being an image maker from being an image crafter.
    Absolutely 100% in agreement there bud...
    Obviously though, each person chooses how to best distribute their time between crafting and creating... it's almost like pie.. there is the eating, and the making of the pie... and they are irrevocably tied together... but we don't need not be able to bake the best pie in order to enjoy eating one.

  2. #12
    Pastiche's Avatar
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    LIVEMOA

    Cool!

    Thanks for the refferences.

    I'm at the University of Arizona campus right NOW.. and will swing into the Lib to see what I can score.

    Mucho garcias... ;.)

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv View Post
    Ah, my dear Pastiche, your inner troubles spring at the most propitious of times for me while I'm reading in philosophy of art. To answer your question, you need an ontology of art.
    If you happen to have a bibliography for art philosophy (and in particular, the epistemology of photograhy and double bonus points for any comparison/contrast between film, latent images, and prints in a Kantian epistemological framework) please PM me with any recommended reading!

    Thanks!

    -Clint

  4. #14
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Clint, if you have access to a good library, go first check out the Routledge Companion to Aesthetics, the Oxford Encyclopedia of Aesthetics, and the Oxford Handbook of Aesthetics. In the Encyclopedia you will find a good article on Kant with pertinent references. I can check it out next time I'm at the library if you need.

    The Kantian framework is a bit superceded nowadays, because of the gradual inclusion of intention/practices/history of production/etc in the nature of the artwork. The Kantian framework limits the scope of appreciation to the artefact and the human mind. That is not to say that Kant is outdated, in fact he's pretty hip in the cognitive sciences. But the recent developments in aesthetics usually include a pragmatics, contextual approach.

    Regarding photography, there is a good list in the Oxford Handbook, so for the benefit of all here I will mention some important titles:

    * In the classics category:

    Barthes, Roland. Camera Lucida (La chambre claire)
    Baudelaire, Charles. "Photography" in Beaumont Newhall (ed.) Photography: Essays and Images.
    Bazin, André. "The Ontology of the Photographic Image" in What is Cinema?
    Sontag, Susa. On Photography
    Schaeffer, Jean-Marie. L'image précaire (sorry, I don't know if there's an english translation).
    Scruton, Roger. "Photography and Representation" in The Aesthetic Understanding
    Walton, Kendall. "Transparent Pictures: On the Nature of Photographic Realism." Critical Enquiry 11 (1984). 246-277.

    Stanley Cavell also is foundational, but he worked mostly on film, so only part of what he says is applicable to still photography.

    Of course there is also the indispensable Photographers on Photography, edited by Nathan Lyons, which contains all the important artists arguing about their art.

    * In the more current category, all of which have an axe to grind with the above authors:

    Currie, Gregory. "Photography, Painting and Perception" Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism 49 (1991): 23-29.
    Friday, J. "Transparency and the Photographic Image." British Journal of Aesthetics 36 (1996): 30-42.
    Savedoff, B. Transforming Images: How Photography Complicates the Picture.
    Warburton, Nigel. "Seeing Through 'Seeing through Photographs.'" Ratio 1 (1988): 173-181.
    ---, "Varieties of Photographic Representation" History of Photography 15 (1991): 203-10.
    ---, "Authentic Photographs". British Journal of Aesthetics 37 (1997): 129-137.

    * Other works of more general concerns but which are useful for reflexion

    Art in Theory: 1900-1990. Edited by Charles Harrison and Paul Wood.
    Arnheim, Rudolf. Art and Visual Perception
    Carroll, Noël E. Theories of Art Today.
    Currie, Gregory. Ontology of Art.
    Lopes, Dominic M. McIver. Understanding Pictures.
    Gombrich, E.H. Art and Illusion
    Walton, Kendall. Mimesis as Make-Believe
    Wollheim, Richard. Art and its Objects
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  5. #15

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    In consideration of the question is the print the art work or is the image (subject) the artwork, Andy Warhol comes to mind.

    In the current issue of Art News Christies has an advertisement for a Warhol print (Orange Marilyn) with an auction price projected n the millions of dollars.

    This is a silkscreen of a photograph taken by someone else of Marilyn Monroe.
    What is the artwork in this case? Monroe? The orginal photograph Warhol copied or the actual Warhol print?

    This may be a unique peice from Warhol which is the opposite of what you are discussing, but he cranked out a lot of similar work.

    Another person that comes to mind is Christo. Once he dismantles one of his wrappings/installations the only thing left are the photographs. The photographs are not the orginal art, but I imagine that certain "signature" images of his projects are seen as works of art in themselves.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  6. #16

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    and into the mix you might add Jean Baudrillard's Simulations from 1983 who was, it appears, influenced by Kant.
    David Boyce

    When bankers get together for dinner, they discuss art. When artists get together for dinner, they discuss money. Oscar Wilde Blog fp4.blogspot.com

  7. #17
    Black Dog's Avatar
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    See also: Approaching Photography (Paul Hill)
    Dialogues With Photography (Paul Hill & Thomas Cooper)
    Towards A Psychology of Art (Rudolf Arnheim)
    Beauty In Photpgraphy (Robert Adams)
    "He took to writing poetry and visiting the elves: and though many shook their heads and touched their foreheads and said 'Poor old Baggins!' and though few believed any of his tales, he remained very happy till the end of his days, and those were extraordinarily long "- JRR Tolkien, ' The Hobbit '.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv View Post
    The Kantian framework is a bit superceded nowadays, because of the gradual inclusion of intention/practices/history of production/etc in the nature of the artwork.
    Another totally rockin' geek-out thread. I dig APUG more and more every day.

    Re Kant, what got me pondering it was the whole data/framework thing and how it applies perfectly to contemporary data storage and thus d*gital shooting. If you have data on the card/drive but no FAT or way to read it (say, if your RAW files are no longer readable because noone makes a RAW reader for your system in 50 years), no photos. Likewise, if there is that framework but no data, no photos.

    I spent some time discussing this with the guy who is the VP of future storage tech for IBM. He wrote a book we used in my grad epistemology class, but I cant remember the title off my head -- but long and short, he says that long term storage (of which my interest is mainly) isnt an issue of technology, but one of epistemology -- will we be able to get the information from data to experience in X years?

    Phew. Enough of that for a bit.

    I have access to the MCAD, MIA and U of MN libraries, so I will definitely dig in to your reading list.

  9. #19
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    This will be a LOT shorter than necessary - I'm again struggling with a freezing PC...

    I agree - "Art" is NOT the "Artwork". Art in its pure form is in the concept and vision of the Artist.

    There lies the usual burden of "portability" - conveying something so nebulous and devoid of concrete form to the consciousness of someone else. The only ways available WILL degrade the "pure" image to SOME extent - but there is nothing else to do but choose a medium that we THINK will cause the least corruption.

    Combine our flawed means of tramsmission with the flawed means of reception in our audience, and it is a true miracle that it "works" so frequently.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  10. #20
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post

    I agree - "Art" is NOT the "Artwork". Art in its pure form is in the concept and vision of the Artist.
    That, and also all the hours of work and cogitation he/she (it?) puts into getting some results.

    There's no such thing as art that is not realised at least partially. Lots of people have had grand visions that they failed to accomplish: Spenser never finished the Faerie Queene (thank God!), and I didn't have the energy to take the camera out after work today. On the other hand, Joyce did finish Finnegans Wake.

    Pure art does not exist. What differentiates an ordinary artist from an accomplished one is that the latter delivered the goods, while the other is still dreaming from the pipe.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

    My APUG Portfolio

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