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  1. #21
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv View Post
    That, and also all the hours of work and cogitation he/she (it?) puts into getting some results.

    There's no such thing as art that is not realised at least partially...

    ... Pure art does not exist. What differentiates an ordinary artist from an accomplished one is that the latter delivered the goods, while the other is still dreaming from the pipe.
    I disagree, but trying to resolve that issue is equal to PROVING that "soul" or "self" DOES exist. It will take someone with FAR more intelligence than I have to do that.

    I can "cite" one example of "conceptual" art, from a display in MOCA - The Museum of Contemporary Art, In Adams, Massachusets: An exhibit entitled "To The Sea" (Not at all sure of the title - if memory serves - and it doesn't much lately, this is it). The descriptive brochure explains the inscriptions on the wall, which read, "To the Sea", "By the Sea", Under the Sea", "On the Sea"... The physical work is NOT the work of the artist. He adamantly adheres to the premise that if he were to make his "art" (vision, concept - whatever) into a physical reality it would be unacceptably degraded and corrupted, so to keep it "pure" (no, I won't argue this) he will only describe the work: The words; font, type and size; color; letter spacing ... etc., and the result - interpretation - of these directions - was painted on the wall by someone else.

    His "concept" remained unsullied. The museum thought enough of his "art" to buy it (with real, "concrete") money.

    It does make one think ... not about the judgement of the "buyers", as much as the "artworks" of all the great artists - just how accurate and true they were to the "music being played in their heads ..."

    ... And here I am - busting my buns in the darkroom, trying to make really *good* prints ... which, sadly, will never be as fine as the "concepts" I have.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  2. #22
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    I disagree, but trying to resolve that issue is equal to PROVING that "soul" or "self" DOES exist. It will take someone with FAR more intelligence than I have to do that.
    I can't say about the soul, but about the self, there is a good deal of research in cognitive science about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    (snip) His "concept" remained unsullied. The museum thought enough of his "art" to buy it (with real, "concrete") money.
    My previous reply probably was not clear enough, but I meant to say that it's not the artefact that is the artwork. I said earlier in the discussion that some conceptual art dispenses altogether with the idea of the artifcat, and I think you have given a fair exemple of it. What I mean is that the artwork is identified by combination of its structure and of the work that went into achieving it.

    Think of woodworking: when we mean "fine woodworking" we don't just mean that the product we hold in our hand is looking good, useful, etc. We also mean that the process whereby it was created is fine. The woodworker worked with craft, with intelligence. She solved problems that involved her material, her intentions, accidents, bursts of inspirations, practical needs, etc. All in all, she did a good job: the sixty hours of work that went into the fabrication of this table have been spent intelligently.

    That's why I don't agree that everything is in the vision, because art is as much a process (a work, a job) as every other human activity. The artefact gives us insights on this process; the learned critic will discern probably more than the layman, but even with just a little of context we can get a sense of what went through the making of a fine table.

    And while artists DO have visions they set out to realize, I don't agree that their realization is inherently flawed compared to their original mental form. If so, it would mean that all artists have a fully formed and perfect conception of what they want to achieve before they do so, and that would negate a whole set of artworks that arise out of experimentation, cogitation, trial and error, or mere luck. Is Capa's falling Spanish soldier the result of a grand design? Think of Michaelangelo talking of "liberating" forms from the marble blocks he used rather than imposing his ideas on it. Art is also a discovery, not just imposition of form over substance.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  3. #23
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Neither do I agree that "everything is the vision." The "vision" is an important part of the work, however ... I can't imagine another scenario. When the vision comes into play is another question. I don't believe that it MUST precede the "art" ... it may occur from some sort of synapse after the initial image (broad sense), in which case, it is capture instead of creation.

    Again, the idea of "conceptual" art is exactly that ... a "concept" in itself. It is one way of looking at the modus operandi other artists may choose ... in an effort to receive and react "along the same lines (the best that can be expected).

    An observation: neither the "artist" or the "craftsman" (not to say there is a clear distinction between them) are, in my opinion, EVER "satisfied" with their work ... possibly a true craftsman less so than the artist. There is a gut-wrenching decision, always, of when to stop and abandon the quest for perfection - and abandon it at some point, we must. It is said that Ansel Adams continued to work on "Moonlight Over Hernandez" until he died ... a space of many years. Many great oil paintings contain an awful lot of paint ... put there by significanlty great artists who simply kept trying to improve the work.

    Now is the "craftsmanship" inherently "flawed" to some degree? I think it is ... and the desire to keep at it - a manifestation of that sense of inadequacy.

    In the last analysis ... We are all "flawed", certainly our dexterity - far less certainly, our vision. I have never made anyhthing I have considered to be "perfect", and when - and IF I do, I'll expect a great surge of temple building, every one dedicated to ME.

    In the meantime, I'll continue - even without reasonable justification. Nothing else makes any sense to me.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  4. #24
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Don't worry Brad, it's like you entered that V for Vendetta's guy lair...
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  5. #25
    Black Dog's Avatar
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    A netherworld where neither the illusion nor its armature prevail
    "He took to writing poetry and visiting the elves: and though many shook their heads and touched their foreheads and said 'Poor old Baggins!' and though few believed any of his tales, he remained very happy till the end of his days, and those were extraordinarily long "- JRR Tolkien, ' The Hobbit '.

  6. #26
    davetravis's Avatar
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    Pastiche,
    I understand your quandary.
    If, after you capture the image onto some media, you stop, what will it be?
    In painting, it would be the finished artwork, yet still subject to modifications.
    In photography, it is only a potential artwork, the first step, and must be completed with the print.
    If you shoot slides, then you have a portable artwork ready to display.
    If you shoot negatives, you can leave them un-developed, and the latent image will remain the artwork, but only in conception, inside your mind.
    If you develope the negs, you can leave them as the "one-of-a-kind" artwork, or you can make a single contact print, and it could be the artwork, or both. Either way, you have two originals. The un-printed neg, and the single contact print are both your expressions of your original concept.
    DT
    Last edited by davetravis; 10-26-2006 at 11:36 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #27

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    Yawn..what difference does it make?
    Claire (Ms Anne Thrope is in the darkroom)

  8. #28
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claire Senft View Post
    Yawn..what difference does it make?
    Silly me, I should really not think about these things... Now I see the light, and will check in for a twelve-step program to get rid of theory.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claire Senft View Post
    Yawn..what difference does it make?
    well, a lot to people who think about these things and want to better understand process and a works place in the world. If people didn't think and talk about these things the world would be a dull place. And yes, I know, many people are very happy with dull.
    David Boyce

    When bankers get together for dinner, they discuss art. When artists get together for dinner, they discuss money. Oscar Wilde Blog fp4.blogspot.com

  10. #30
    Pastiche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claire Senft View Post
    Yawn..what difference does it make?
    Hi Claire!

    I'd like to hear more about why you think it makes no difference...
    Really. I'm not trying to induce any bickering, but rather, I'm interested in the point of view you hold... it's obviously different from my own, and I'd like to see what you see...

    Hope you care to indulge a stranger...

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