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  1. #21
    Daniel_OB's Avatar
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    Swastika used in art today is a nice example of the artistical problem, and to solve it the best way is to trace it through the history. I just cannot remember of any example that western artists used it ever. However my knowledge is not absolute, but for sure its use was very rare. Today, to the symbol of the swastika is added one very strong meaning - nazy. I think that there is no guy when see swastika that do not remember nazy beside (if he want it) and some other meanings.
    Put it on your arm and walk along the street and just look at the faces of old people. Simple, it is what is, swastika today is a fuc*en nazy. What it was thousands years ago, ask them.
    I also think that there should not be a reason to call for trouble (today), photographs are made to enjoy in just every its detail.

    www.Leica-R.com

  2. #22

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    The swastika whether facing right or left is a very ancient symbol for the sun and appears in cave painting all around the world.

    I think it is important to differentiate between symbols and ideas. Symbols often change fairly rapidly with the times while ideas remain constant. Once one realizes this then symbols lose most of their power over us. It is the idea which is truly dangerous.

  3. #23
    Bob F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargazer View Post
    Bob,

    Yes, the Union Jack has been used by fascists.

    The Cross of St George has had particular significance.
    See below:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...806590,00.html

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...4/ai_n16455783

    You can also easily find sites relating to groups such as the BNP, which explain the importance of the flag and in particular the 'idea' of the cross, but I have no wish to link to those sites.

    Cate
    Do an image search on the BNP and NF etc and count the flags. I've been on their sites and I've read the drivel and seen the images. It is clear which is used as a symbol by these cretins. The BNP and NF both even use the Union Flag as part of their logos!

    I was on a couple of anti-racism marches as a student in the 1970's. Hardly anyone back then would have known an England flag if it had jumped up and bit them on the nose. It was never flown on Town Halls, it was not displayed inside official buildings, it was never seen at football matches, no one ever used it. The NF did not use it because if they had, they would have had to spend half their time telling people what it was!

    As for the two articles you found, frankly, The Guardian and The Independent have about as much editorial integrity as The Daily Mail, albeit coming from the opposite end of the spectrum and I note that most of both articles are really about slagging off working class popular culture (in this case, football) in a way that their exclusively metropolitan middle-class left-wing readership will approve of by associating all football supporters with the far right by association. Facts must not be allowed to get in the way of this important public service. Sheer revisionism.

    Sorry to witter on about this, but I keep reading about how the English Flag is a right-wing symbol and it simply is not true. I know the left want it to be true because they fear the stirrings of English nationalism provoked by Scottish Devolution and the fact that Scottish UK MPs vote in the UK Parliament on exclusively English and Welsh issues whereas English UK MPs have (naturally) no say in the local Scottish Parliament. But, as I said, that's another issue entirely and of no conceivable interest to anyone outside these isles....

    It's understandable when people overseas get confused between the Union Flag (the flag of Britain) and the Cross of St. George (the flag of England - I spell this out for those not aware of the difference, but still managing to stay awake) but when the British do so too, it gets a trifle irritating...

    Cheers, Bob.

    P.S. Michael: The V-for-victory sign is palm outwards, same as for Peace. The same sign, palm towards the body, means much the same as the extended middle digit in the US. Emphasis may be added by starting the hand horizontally and pivoting the lower arm at the elbow until the hand reaches the vertical, optionally ending with a flourish at the end by oscillating the hand back and forwards rapidly several times at the wrist...
    Last edited by Bob F.; 10-30-2006 at 12:20 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Too many "cheers"....

  4. #24
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F. View Post
    P.S. Michael: The V-for-victory sign is palm outwards, same as for Peace.
    You may be right but as I remember pictures of Churchill, it was palm towards body.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  5. #25
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F. View Post
    P.S. Michael: The V-for-victory sign is palm outwards, same as for Peace. The same sign, palm towards the body, means much the same as the extended middle digit in the US. Emphasis may be added by starting the hand horizontally and pivoting the lower arm at the elbow until the hand reaches the vertical, optionally ending with a flourish at the end by oscillating the hand back and forwards rapidly several times at the wrist...
    And I always thought my wife was telling me to 'peace out'

    *

  6. #26
    Bob F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    You may be right but as I remember pictures of Churchill, it was palm towards body.


    Michael
    Always palm out - otherwise would be very rude indeed (not that he was averse to being very rude indeed when the mood took him... ) http://images.google.co.uk/images?nu...e=UTF-8&tab=wi

    Cheers, Bob.

  7. #27
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F. View Post
    Always palm out -
    Are you sure?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails VSign.jpg  
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F. View Post
    Sorry to witter on about this, but I keep reading about how the English Flag is a right-wing symbol and it simply is not true.
    ..
    No, of course the English flag is not simply or by any stretch of the imagination only a 'right-wing symbol'. But it has been used as a 'right-wing emblem' , and therefore it carries with it - in part though not in whole - a symbolism that has an association with the far right. I agree the Union Jack was associated with the National Front from the first, but they - and the BNP - have also embraced the English flag and with it their own definitions of 'nationalism'. The following comes from the bbc news website and is quoting directly from an article on the BNP website. The article is entitled "St George is For Life".
    "Although a few tabloid newspapers have lately and cynically jumped on the bandwagon, it has been the BNP over the past four years that has been the driving force to promote the consciousness of the red and white in England... The St. George flag has featured prominently at all national and local events and the party has publicly supported the campaign to have St. George’s Day recognised as a national holiday in England."
    I'm not sure you read the second article - the writer was clearly applauding the use of the flag by the new generation of football lovers, and stating that this is a good way to retrieve the flag from less pleasant connotations, that are real enough anyway for some who belong, like herself, to a racial minority.

    BTW My personal feelings about football are completely neutral! Having two sons who have either been through or are still going through a love affair with football I certainly do not think football supporters who wave English flags are right-wing thugs, - or 'working class' for that matter. Not quite sure what I said for you to jump to that conclusion.

    I really didn't think I was saying anything controversial - certainly don't want to get into an argument, or wish to discuss it further.

    As far as relevance to this thread goes, forget the English flag, if you want. Take my comments to refer to the Union Jack, which is and has been stuffed with symbolism through the ages and as someone mentioned re the Confederate flag, means very different things to different people.
    Last edited by catem; 10-30-2006 at 03:58 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #29
    André E.C.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    Are you sure?
    That was photoshoped !

    Cheers

    André

  10. #30
    Charles Webb's Avatar
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    Blanski's photo is simply Churchill ordering two hot dogs while attending a
    an outdoor concert near his residence on Downing Street.

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