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  1. #71
    jstraw's Avatar
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    There is also research that suggests that certain people are predisposed toward violent sexuality and that it's more likely that they will engage in such activity if it's *suppressed* in their fantasy life....that living something out in one's imagination provides an outlet.

    I don't subscribe to one belief over the other. I'm just saying there is research to support a variety of points of view.
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  2. #72

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    Slippery? And research to support a variety of points?...let's see it. And please make it good research....come on.....pre-disposed? With no triggers? Supressing a fantasy life....I'm done with this nonsense.

  3. #73
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    I TRIED to investigate Ms. Russells site with an open mind ... which became more difficult when I read the following:

    "While correlation does not prove causation, and it therefore cannot be concluded from these studies that it was from the consumption of the pornography that was responsible for the males higher acceptance of violence against women, their findings are consistent with the theory that a casual connection exists." (note 1)

    This is an interesting statement; first we are led to doubt the credibility of the "studies" ... then - about face ... BUT ... it IS consistent.

    Let me write something similar, with a less emotionally-charged subject:

    Extensive studies have shown that 100% (note: perfect correlation!) of mass murderers drank water at some time in their lives.
    While correlation does not prove causation, these findings are consistent with the theory that a casual connection exists between the consumption of water and the crime of murder.

    Of course they are consistent ... but NOT (even remotely!) significant.

    I then kept on ... What can be said about a site dealing with an important and sensitive subject as this one does ... where the author chooses to
    include images proving how physically flexible she is?

    It might be an idea to consider the change in the amount of aggressive behavior caused by the repeal of MOST of the anti-pornography laws in Scandinavia during the ... 1960's - '70's? There certainly WERE changes - sexually explicit material flooded the bookshelves - AND - the incidence of crimes of violence - both involving sex, and not involving sex - DECREASED significantly.

    Old saying: Beware of those who refer to what they have written before as absolute truths.


    (note 1) I've read that over a couple of times; either I've copied that incorrectly or there is a bit of "strange' syntax there.... in any event I get the idea.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  4. #74

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    I think the point about pre-teens not being hung up on nudity is very valid. By way of corollary, my five year old son had a student working at his kindergarten in full burka, ie. woman in Islamic dress with only eyes showing. I was a bit shocked by this and thought this inappropriate in for a kindergarten teacher. He barely even noticed. As far as he was concerned she was just another adult, no matter what she wore. He had no real emotional baggage around the issue at all. Similarly, I think he would see a nude as a picture of an adult with no clothes on, rather than an adult with clothes on. It is only when he hits puberty that any form of awareness or shame will kick in.

    Besides, the difference between pornography and erotica is easy. It's lighting.

    John.

  5. #75
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    I copied this from somewhere ... I've been trying to find it again, without success. I am NOT sure of the author - I have "Aeolius Stilo" noted ... but he was Roman, and I thought this was written in ancient Greece some time before Stilo ... ca. 500 - 400 BCE.

    Anyway, I think it has some bearing on the issue of prornography, and art ... and whether "redeeming qualities" are necessary in every facet of our lives...

    The Greek "Dionysus" was the god of Wine, the Symposium, revelry ... and general (irrational, unredeeming) partying.

    "To resist Dionysus is to deny the irrational within the self, the repression of which can only and inevitably lead to its destructive release. The human spirit demands Dionyiac ecstasy, for those who accept it, the experience offers spiritual power. for those who repress the natural forces within themselves or refuse it to others, it is transformed into destruction, both for the innocent and the guilty. To have awareness of one's own nature, and therefore, one's place in nature is wisdom (sophia) itself."

    I don't think celebrating Dionysus each and every minute is a good idea ... everything in moderation ... but once in a while it seems to be necessary to avoid a brittleness of the spirit.

    Sour godliness is the devil's religion.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  6. #76
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    So Ed, what I think you are trying to say is:

    Everything in moderation, including moderation.

    And you did point out the same problems I had with some of Ms. Russells' conclusions (ie. the "slippery" ones). Thanks!

    Vaughn

  7. #77
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    Where do we draw the line - I have no idea

    I have been following this thread with some interest. I have found most photographs of nudes, male or female, result in no reaction by me. They are not of interest to me generally. So I can never quite understand some peoples, IMHO, over reaction.

    I remember that in the past few months I have seen two very good nude photographs, both were of children – horror of horrors – one was a quite famous photo taken in the early 1900’s of a group of young lad swimming or sunbathing in an estuary, the other was a group of 10year olds, in the 1920/30 who had done a similar thing in a London park and were being chased by a furious looking policewoman chasing them with a stick. Both candid shots, quiet exquisite, and both illegal if taken today.

    But did you realise, images created by computer, psudophotographs, can also classified as illegal an pornographic, as one 19 year old found out in Canada, who had scanned images of children from a clothing catalogue, and alter their images in some way, he got a 2 year sentence. Even images where say the heads of adults and children are swapped and superimposed on each other, (though why one would do this I don’t know), would also fall foul of the law. The harm or exploitation of children is totally unacceptable – but I never expected this to include almost cartoon type images, nor did I expect to include a farther who had taken photographs of his young children playing naked at beach in France being arrested back home in England for having pornographic material and being a paedophile, (he was eventually acquitted).

    But I’m still no near my goal of what is a clear definition of what is considered obscene and pornographic.
    [FONT=Palatino Linotype]Rob J-T[/FONT]

  8. #78
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    So Ed, what I think you are trying to say is:
    Everything in moderation, including moderation.
    Exactly!!! For once, I am relieved that someone "saw" the same meaning that I did!

    The more I think of it, and the more I investigate the cause / effect of the exposure to pornography, the more convinced I am that it DOES have a "redeeming quality": It serves as a "pressure release" valve.

    Possibly we should all ask ourselves: "When did I first encounter pornography, and what long-term effect did it have?" With me... I think I was about 13 years old... and long term effect? Not much... certainly nowhere near as much as other factors in my life.

    I realize that, for many, this in NOT what they WANT to hear. I have chosen truth - as far as I am able to see it - over giving people what they want to hear.
    I doubt if I'll ever have the fame and status of those who give the nutcake fringe (and it is sad that "nutcakery" is, many times, not their fault) what they want to hear... case in point: Ann Coulter.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

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