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  1. #11
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller View Post
    Let's face it folks, knocking someone else does not make us any better than we really are. Chances are if our work is not selling for anything approaching this sale then we probably don't know enough to critique.

    VERY
    true. The greatest folly is it attempt to make one's candle appear brighter by veiling everyone else's... and that is not restricted to photography, or art.

    Someone bought a burnt cheese sandwich for $18,000. I think it must have been a bizarre decision to make. I'm glad it wasn't mine.

    Let us encourage and inspire. That sounds better to me than whatever else in on the list.

    Now that I have gotten that off my chest, those of you whom I have offended can go back to your snide commentary... or you can do something that is really different and positive and applaud those who do more than parrot what has gone on before...
    I'll join with you in the applause.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  2. #12

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    Sometimes sour grapes make the sweetest wine (or is that whine?). Grin.

    I do remember the thread. Can't remember the exact post I added to the thread - something about getting a good PR firm to promote oneself, or there's about. I still believe that lately much of the 'high end' art photography is about branding and positioning oneself in the market place. Many of the 'artist statements' I've read seem to be written by consultants, not the artists themselves.

    And then I wonder what will these museums and collectors think when their million dollar Duratrans fade from excessive exposure to the lightbox they are mounted in? Do they get another Duratran, or do they pay another million?

    I looked at Jeff Walls work at the Baltimore Museum of Art. I was unmoved. There was so much better work to look at elsewhere in the museum. Didn't give him a second look. Wasn't worth my time. That's not sour grapes. That's my opinion of how he spoke to my heart.
    When I grow up, I want to be a photographer.

    http://www.walterpcalahan.com/Photography/index.html

  3. #13

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    Oh come on.... this is not about squashing others to pump yourself up but about people being able to say what they think without being branded a nasty wasty uncultured thug.

    The world is not all butterflies and bunnies (and because I have seen HSBC adverts I can rehtorically ask does life imitate art or art imitate life (or neither). This forum and its members reflect a pretty healthy cross section of real people, I think. Yes, when witch hunts commence it can be a bit worrying, but they are rare and generally put in their box by consensus pretty quickly. I therefore dont have any concerns to be frank and feel that the thread was in no way vindictive. A bit of controversy borne out of candour makes the debate actually mean something! The opposite is worthless and I would have no interest reading it. The person who commented that they and seen the artists images in person and rated them was just as important as those who are skeptical.

    Encouraging and inspiring is a good thing, but if you dont rate a peice of work you should be able to say so fairly directly. Note that the artist in this case did not post it for criticism and so the post should not be expected to demonstrate the same tact as it would were the person present.

    Sadly the lack of direct (sometimes harsh) words is probably why we have teenage delinquency and 100% pass rates in worthless exams. There is a place for saying what you think and expressing criticism where you feel it appropriate. Encouragement loses all value when it becomes as instinctive and inane as a supermarket meeter and greeters "have a nice day". It has to have a context and actually mean something in a comparative sense.

    As for the notion that you have to be earning big bucks from photography to be able to have valid insight is laughable. How much did many famous artists earn in their lifetimes? How many writers also died in poverty? How many educators do not earn huge amounts by implimenting the subjects they teach to personal gain. When it comes to opinions about the end result (the piece) anyone exposed to it is damn well entitled to entitled to a frank view and it is up to the artist to determine whether they care a stuff or not!

  4. #14

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    Art?? It's an odd thing. A display of X blenders containing one goldfish each is considered art though the idea is at least two or three decades old and stealed from a TV program. If the right people says the right things about the work it instantly gains value.
    When artcritics talk I go ????? I simply don't follow them and all that matters to me is whether the work is a piece of art or crap to me. Does it move me or not. Do I feel something when watching it or not. Do I remember it or not. If it needs the support of an artcritic to explain whats going on it has failed.
    You/he may point out reflections or details that has escaped me, yes and thats ok but let people do the interpretation themselves.
    We can't discuss taste cause that is personal some like it and some don't but we can discuss content and whether the message in the work reach us or not. Why is stating one's oppinion suddenly a matter of envy and making one's candle appear brighter by veiling everyone else's...
    If I don't rate something very high I say so. That has nothing to do with what I do myself.
    Cheers
    Søren
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  5. #15
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stanworth View Post
    ... Encouragement loses all value when it becomes as instinctive and inane as a supermarket meeter and greeters "have a nice day". It has to have a context and actually mean something in a comparative sense.
    Oh, no! I am not going to get entangled in that "context" discussion again. I agree, wholeheartedly that whatever comments are made, they MUST be truthful. Otherwise they are empty platitudes - meaning nothing.

    I don't do "empty platitudes" - why should I? At the same time, I WILL express my views - which are, essentially, my emotional reactions to the work... IF that work does provoke an emotional reaction. Some do not, and I find it equally dishonest to try to say that they do.

    Jackson Pollock once wrote that, in visiting Galleries, he always paid attention to the works he DID NOT "like". His philosophy was that "Someone else DID" - Not that they were dishonest, or trying to foist crap upon the public, but they simply SAW the work differently. THEY liked - were fascinated by - it. That doesn't mean ignorance, or a lack of knowledge of what is "good" or bad" - it merely reaffirms the fact that we are all DIFFERENT - in our personalities, our artistic "sight"; our interpretation of the work. They "saw" it differently - and if he could expand himself to "SEE" it in the same manner, if only for an instant, he grew, immeasurably.

    What do we - or rather, the majority of critics, do? Do they try to "see" the work through the eyes of the photographer, or do they try to bash it into a box of conforminty, with the label of "Only Trying to Help"?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  6. #16
    jstraw's Avatar
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    Support anything an analog photographer does (unless he sets the landscape on fire), say nothing unless you have praise, if you don't "get" something, just stifle yourself.

    Do I have it right?

    Feh.

    My inability to mindlessly embrace or understand the price tag gets me called names?
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post

    Jackson Pollock once wrote that, in visiting Galleries, he always paid attention to the works he DID NOT "like". His philosophy was that "Someone else DID" - Not that they were dishonest, or trying to foist crap upon the public, but they simply SAW the work differently. THEY liked - were fascinated by - it. That doesn't mean ignorance, or a lack of knowledge of what is "good" or bad" - it merely reaffirms the fact that we are all DIFFERENT - in our personalities, our artistic "sight"; our interpretation of the work. They "saw" it differently - and if he could expand himself to "SEE" it in the same manner, if only for an instant, he grew, immeasurably.

    What do we - or rather, the majority of critics, do? Do they try to "see" the work through the eyes of the photographer, or do they try to bash it into a box of conforminty, with the label of "Only Trying to Help"?
    Ed, I agree with Mr. Pollack and with your sentiments here. I can always learn more about whatever in life that confronts me...whether that is someone else's personal creative expression, someones decision to spend money as they choose or another matter entirely unrelated. Sometimes I choose to learn and sometimes I choose not to learn.

    Someone once told me that opinions are much like rectal orifices...we all have them, that does not, however mean that we need to expose them flagrantly and publically.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  8. #18
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    Support anything an analog photographer does (unless he sets the landscape on fire), say nothing unless you have praise, if you don't "get" something, just stifle yourself.
    Do I have it right?
    Not quite. Say nothing, unless you are being honest. If you don't get something ... it might be a golden opportunity to ask yourself WHY you don't.

    "Stifle" yourself? No ... express yourself through YOUR work. I would suggest that it might be a good idea to never lose sight of the society in which we live ... and be circumspect in what we do and SAY.

    I remember once "counseling" a teen-aged girl whose parents were trying to teach her how to drive. Her parents were brittle, to say the least ... they had the idea that, "We only learn from our mistakes". Every "wrong" move on her part was met by instant crushing, criticism ... "We have to make sure she does not forget her mistakes!!"..
    Her learning came to a standstill. She was terrified to take the wheel.

    I asked her why ... her answer was ... pure TRUTH!:

    "It is awfully hard to learn while you are crying."

    To me, that says it all.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  9. #19
    jstraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    Not quite. Say nothing, unless you are being honest. If you don't get something ... it might be a golden opportunity to ask yourself WHY you don't.

    "Stifle" yourself? No ... express yourself through YOUR work. I would suggest that it might be a good idea to never lose sight of the society in which we live ... and be circumspect in what we do and SAY.
    So discussing the $1mil price tag is just for people that understand and support it. The rest of us should just listen?

    If that's you position then we're in disagreement.

    Mind you, I never discussed the aresthetics. I have zero problem with conceptualism in art thought hat doesn't mean there is no such thing as bullshit. I had a reaction to the price.
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  10. #20
    jstraw's Avatar
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    This thread is pretty awful. If you don't like my argument in a thread, make a superior, counter-argument. Engage in debate.

    This tactic of launching a meta-discussion seeking a consensus to marginalize contrary points of view is really, really lame. It's even lamer than the the oft-seen rhetorical ploy of entering a thread and proclaiming it's lameness and cojoling other people to stop having a conversation of which one disaproves. So I won't do that.

    I'll engage in debate and offer my disdain for any such thing as preference for consensus modes of thinking on APUG.

    If there's an APUG Position on anything beyond the terms and contidions for use of this site, I'm disinterested.
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