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  1. #21

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    Their are so many options that you would be insane to commute. If you can still receive transferable credits at lower rate locally take them!!! In my opinion you are better of taking all of your lower devision coursework at a community or city college for two reason 1) you will save a bloody fortune, 2) you WILL get a better education. Lower devision at a university is usually taught by grad students. The community college I attended had a staff full of Phd's, who had worked in their respected fields for at least a decade. Taking lower devision at a university is for rich kids, and those who got scholarships.

    Other then continuing at local school contact the university and see if they have online or correspondence courses.

    Yours;

  2. #22
    colrehogan's Avatar
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    There probably isn't much in the way of hotels/motels halfway between where he lives and St. Louis. There is a reason it is called the 'great plains'.
    Diane

    Halak 41

  3. #23

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    Diane, it's actually the "not so Great Plains", at least here in the nether regions...

    Chris, this is a community college, probably one of the best photography programs at the 2 year level, nevermind a community college. I'm looking into how this affects my pell grant, as there is a community college about 1/2 hour away (close by midwest standards) where I can at least take a few of the non photography related requirements.

    Copake, it's funny, when I met my wife, nearly 10 years ago, I lived in massachussetts, met her on line and ended up driving out here every other weekend to visit, 1000 miles (one way). I figured out pretty quick that it'd be easier to move here.


    erie

  4. #24

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    steve,
    already done, and pell grant approved. the only stickler is we would need a stafford loan to move, and the financial aid office insists you must have 6 credits prior to applying for a stafford loan, a detail nowhere to be found on any of the federal student aid websites.


    erie

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stever View Post
    Roger,

    This is about him being himself. He was this way before he got married and his spouse will not respect that.

    Guess what happens.
    The winter before I got married, I skied 42 days [and had a full time professional job]. After I got married, she thought one weekend a year was enough for me. [People get married thinking that they can change someone. Well you can't make someone change.] When I had enough of the crap, I declared myself a free agent.
    **** I ended up with full custody for the two children and three out of four people in the family were much happier.

    Moral: He is what he is. He needs to be himself or he will never be happy. She needs to get over herself. She either will get with the program or he will DTB.

    Steve
    Dear Steve,

    No argument: I've been married twice too. My only question is whether he has fully thought through who he is/what he needs/how he defines himself -- which is why I am so hesitant to offer any advice whatsoever; it is easy to overstep the mark and try to superimpose one's own history/wishes on another.

    If he decides I'm a stupid arsehole, that's fine by me (as long as he doesn't try to persuade the rest of the world). I'd far rather he was happy than I was 'right', however you want to define 'right'. The latter is a tiny part of my life; the former is all of his.

    Cheers,

    R.

  6. #26

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    Dear Erie,

    Your reply to Steve answers a lot.

    There's very little more I can say that applies to your situation, except good luck. If there's any advice at all you think I may be able to give, PM or use the thread -- but I fully accept that there may be no reason to do so.

    Give your wife a hug from me too: 25th wedding anniversay 3 weeks ago.

    Cheers mate,

    Roger

  7. #27

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    Roger, believe me I started down this path after alot of soul searching and asking myself what is it that really makes me happy, and what has consistently made me happy over the years. I have many, many diverse interests, but the one constant has been my photography. It's funny, I've run into a few people from High School over the years, one of, if not the first questions is "are you still shooting?" (yes, I was 'that' guy in HS, 85% of the candids in our yearbook were taken by me, it seems every school has at least one geek)

    I've been thinking about doing some teaching at the local level, similar to the guy that you call when you can't figure the computer out, but photographically. I know there are some fantastic resources online (something you and Frances started long before alot of the current iterations, I might add), though I know of quite a few people that learn hands on, and somehow having somebody there helps them 'get it'. I've gotten tremendous support (overwhlmingly positive) from a few of the local working pros, and at least one has a few people in mind to refer my way. That's an avenue to pursue, at some level in the future.

    I've pretty much decided that taking a few of the required non-photography clases locally until I move won't kill me, though in a perfect world, or one where my medical was current and I still had access to a Cessna 172 for only the cost of fuel, I'd probably commute, at least flying when the weather allowed.

    Regarding lotsa driving, when I first met my wife online (nearly 10 years ago) I drove from Massachussetts to Illinois (~1000 miles each way) every other weekend, I'd leave work friday, drive straight through, spend sat afternoon and sunday morning with her, then drive back, 99% of the time with just enough time to take a shower and go to work monday morning. After a few months of that, it was either move or stop seeing her. The rest, as they say is history.

    Congratulations to you and Frances, 25 years is a long time to tolerate each other's foibles, to say the least. She must be an incredibly patient woman

    I think the smartest thing to do right now is spend some time, codifying my accumulated knowledge, writing it down, as it seems when I start on one subject, inevitably, 10 other tangentially related (barely, but related) recollections pop up.

    Thank you all again, it's good sometimes to hear other's perspective on this subject, as in this neck of the woods, let's just say that I'm surrounded by wonderful, helpful, caring kind people, for the most part, but 90% of them thing higher education is a high school diploma, if you get my drift.


    erie

    edit: Roger, scrolling back through the replies, I just noticed the comment about 1974 and you being an assistant, hows this for a rather unique perspective: right around that same time, my uncle loaned me his Rollei (which I gave back off and on for the next several years) and at the tender age of 11, was insistent that he or my cousins teach me how to develop my own film, as it just made sense to me to do it myself. Now, how seriously would most people take an 11 year old kid, shooting with a Rolleiflex (and using my everpresent Weston II meter)? They ended relenting and I spent many an evening processing and contact printing alot of what I shot, only wish I still had those negs today.
    Last edited by epatsellis; 07-17-2007 at 11:18 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #28
    Murray@uptowngallery's Avatar
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    Yeah, Erie,

    That school would have to be pretty damn good to
    a) be worth the drive
    b) teach you something you don't already know...seriously...
    c) Nothing wrong with pursuing the degree, but the artistic side/and technical sides are probably a bigger factor in selling your work than whether or not you have letters after your name, especially in the arts.

    I did 2 hours a day commuting when I was a full time engrg. student (and married) and I couldn't do it - I fell too far behind and couldn't spend enough time on campus. I'm back again (4th time in 30 years) with a local school. I can't justify a photography class to my employer nor do I have any open credits left, but the new arts dept chair is a photographer, builds cameras and brought in a pinhole show from Texas (to Michigan). Who would have thought?

    An hour away, Smieglitz teaches at a local community college.

    Maybe it would be worthwhile (if you haven't already) to sniff out ALL schools within reasonable driving distance & see if they have gems or clowns teaching there.

    I know two people who went to Brooks...one said he couldn't shoot portraits or landscape to save his life and the other doesn't do photography anymore.

    So where you get the degree may not be that important...
    Murray

  9. #29

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    Dear Erie,

    Your letter makes me realize how lucky I am, not just with Frances but with the photography.

    When I left school I had a choice of a law degree (Birmingham) or a photography degree (Coventry). I chose law -- an LL.B. is an undergraduate degree in the UK -- on the grounds it was a degree in bullsh*t, which would always come in handy, whereas photography I could learn myself. I've never regretted the choice. But that was in the late 60s...

    I will however give you a warning about working full time in photography. It's the story of the man who got a job backstage at Le Crazy Horse (substitute to taste any night club/casino where there are beautiful naked girls on stage). The first month was heaven. The second month was hell. After that, it was just a job.

    What sort of photo jobs want you to have letters after your name? And why? Because here's a rather audacious suggestion: LIE. Tell 'em you spend two years at an English art school in the 80s (take a couple of weeks' holiday somewhere so you can memorize the layout of the place it's supposed to have been). Ideally, there shouldn't be a college there, so no-one else will have been there. If anyone challenges you, say, "Yeah, it was a tiny place, founded in the 1920s, and it closed a couple of years back; too far off the beaten path, I guess." Tavistock, just outside Plymouth, might be good.

    Then award yourself a Dip. A.D. (Diploma of Art and Design) and if anyone asks you why it's not a degree, tell 'em that while most people chose to convert their Dip. A.D. to a B.A., which was what the school awarded later, you preferred to stick with the Dip. A.D. because photography isn't an academic course. My ex-wife, Cath Milne, got her Dip. A.D. at St. Martin's in London, and refused to change it to a B.A., which is where I got the idea.

    Good stories about your wife and the Rollei. When Frances and I met, she was in L.A. and I was in Bristol (spending 2 or 3 weeks in California). That was May 81. In August 81 she flew over to the UK for a couple of weeks and we were engaged. In December 81 I flew out to collect her (stayed a month -- I'd just given up the day job and gone freelance) and in June 82 we were married. We reckon we're on about our 6th or 7th date right now.

    Cheers,

    Roger

  10. #30
    DKT
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    i wouldn't lie about it on an application for a variety of ethical reasons, but also because-well...if you're applying for a job as a STAFF postition be it as a designer or a photographer or some sort of hybrid position, then that says to me that it is either corporate or in government. I work as a staffer in a design dept. with many positions. each has some sort of official paygrade & job description. usually degrees are required, and sometimes certificates for tradework are required as well. often you can have equivalent amounts of professional work experience that can add up in the place of a degree, if that's applicable. You generally need 2-5 yrs of work experience for a lot of these jobs *on top* of the degree.

    One thing the type of degree will get you though, is in where you start off within the pay scale itself. Having a degree will help you get into the "professional" pay grades if the employers have a distinction between "technical" and "professional" positions. again--look at what you get. A technical grade gets time and a half for overtime. a professional is straight time. this is the nature of the beast for staff positions. the degree--maybe you need it, maybe you don't. maybe it helps, maybe it won't.

    but if you lie--they will find out. for one thing, personnel dept's will check out your application to the last letter, follow your ref's etc. they do background checks and the like as well, so they will find out. If they do hire you, and the lie is revealed-you will lose the job probably. so I think--just my opinion of course--that it's best to be honest.

    I question why it is that with all that experience in commercial photography, that you would need a BFA for a photographer/designer job, but I also wonder if that's because the job market has changed so much now, that the skills maybe you would need would be more in line with computer graphics and the like. I know from experience the photographers we have hired (and the way I was hired), they looked at experience over the degrees. They also tested applicants out on the spot--we would have them do some darkroom work, do some studio work, make them show us that they knew what they were doing. They hire carpenters the same way--throw them in the shop and tell them to build a cabinet or something and see how they do it. Supervisory jobs are different though. The degree may be more important there, but then again, you probably won't be doing much else than managing others.

    good luck all the same, my opinions only/not my employers.

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