Oh, and BTW music would be a craft then, since it can be reproduced over and over.
Music is played once and then is gone. Recording is a craft though.
I wouldn't necessarily make mechanical reproduction the dividing line between art and craft.
As I see it, art (or "fine" art) serves no other purpose than being art. Craft (and "applied" art) does.
could it be said that craft is expected and art is unexpected? Michael A. Smith told me one time that, "Illustrations are about things;art is about ideas". At least that is how I remember it. It is a controversial thought but it is a valid thought. Maybe Michael will join in. He and Paula always have things in perspective.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Aggie @ Jan 20 2003, 12:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> as for it being a North American idea? this is something that has been kicking around since the mid 1800's from the time photography started out..
Mid 1800's would have been about right for the time modern factory made goods became known as "new and improved". Better then handcrafted items. It's why wonder bread is "better" then Grandma's home baked bread.
All ideas are a result of the times that created them. I wonder what people will think 100 years from now of us.
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</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Robert Kennedy @ Jan 16 2003, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Point being, I use what works and fits the situation. Mr. Crabbe on the other hand seems to be of the "Film is dead" school. Digital is the future! Burn your Deardorff now!
Well this isn't true. Film cameras still outsell digital. Film sales are still very high, and film is a very valid medium. It always will be. Especially with B/W.
I just don't have any truck with those who say otherwise.
Besides that Crabbe REALLY needs to find a vision. I agree with Jorge. This isn't to say I am any better or anything. But at least I don't try and sell my trite crap. In fact I have maybe 2 or 3 images that I would even CONSIDER selling and only one that I have. All are better than what Crabbe is selling.
And I suck!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
First, I'll take great issue with "... And I suck!".
I haven't met a photographer yet where I can honestly say that their work is of that low a merit (awkward syntax - but I'm choosing words carefully here.)
My greatest effort in teaching is trying to convince "newbies" that some of the work they do is really *wonderful* - and that they just don't see it. The next student I don't have to do that with will be my first.
Mr. Crabbe's work is different - and I will admit to having a sudden urge to lie down and put a couple of tea bags over my eyes after all the intense color saturation - but if that is the way he chooses to produce photographs - so be it.
After viewing his web site, I have more appreciation for "High Key" and "pastel-like" colors.
The statements that "Film is dead!!", usually accompanied by the "How- could- you- be- so- ignorant- as- not- to- agree- with- me" look/attitude irritate the living @$$#@% out of me, too.
- And charcoal died when oils came out - and oils died when acrylics came out, and stone sculpture died when hardening silly putty came out. Come to think of it, darkrooms themselves - if those sort of timetables were actually true - died many years ago, _ *nailed* by Polaroid film.
Digital has its place. It is capable of *fine* work - really different than film - but MOST that I have seen so far is not technically up to film, and until recently, nearly all I have seen seemed to be from a "What? - Me Worry?" base ( I can always erase the memory and take more.)
There is a reason I am here on APUG ... Unlike the "Digital" crowd, we are not condemning another's - anyone else's - media. I think we should recognize "digital" as a different medium, and treat it with the same deference we would oils, or pastels, or dance, or music. Different, - not really my "cup of tea" (neither is autofocus, as far as I'm concerned); not the area that attracts my interest, but entitled to a niche in art.
Ed Sukach, FFP.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (David A. Goldfarb @ Jan 19 2003, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Music is played once and then is gone. Recording is a craft though.
I disagree, the music is in the paper, the score. The performance might be ephemeral, but the music is in the score to be played over and over.
Aggie, I dont think anybody here is digital bashing, as I have said if anything I think we are more open minded about it. Ed, and Robert's opinions as well as other confirm this, we think of it as a viable alternative process to express a vision. It is the people who claim that traditional photography is dead who annoy me to no end and those are the ones we are bashing. Which reminds me I am taking the gold star back for that poorly redacted piece which got us all after your friend Gary's scalp.....
Advances in analog cameras? They are way too advanced now....people are unable to remember what button to push to rewind the film. I think digital is a Godsend to camera manufacturers, I mean how much more could you put on a camera? I think they had reached a plateau, I mean first they got matrix metering, then color matrix metering then follow the eye focusing then matrix metering in 100 areas...jeeeezz. I have not used a 35 mm camera in 10 years, but got to sold them when I was laid off..I can tell you half the time people came in to ask us how to do something particular to that camera, and in some instances you needed your ten fingers and some toes to push all the buttons necesary to get the desired function. Me I am working backwards, from a Nikon system, to 4x5, then 8x10 and now a 75 year old Korona.
the one advance I would like to see for my camera systems would be a nubile youngster to carry and set up the 8x10. All the rest of it I can handle. =[8^).
I see the score as a set of instructions for making the music, as a script is a set of instructions for a play, and as Ansel said (just to stay on topic), the negative is the score (which is subject to many interpretations) for the print (which is the performance). At least prints last longer than these other kinds of performances.
More features in analog cameras? Yeah, I want a lightweight, not excessively bulky 4x5" single-window rangefinder (focus through the viewfinder) with interchangeable lenses and a Graflok back. The Littman 45 Single is close, but uses that bulky Polaroid body and has a fixed lens. Press cameras are close, but typically have separate windows for focusing and framing, and require changing cams if you change lenses. If the Contax II 35mm rangefinder could become the 70mm Combat Graphic, I want the same thing but one size up.
I also want an 8x10" Grafmatic film holder, or at least for someone to revive the Mido II filmholder for 8x10" and ULF sizes--where filmholder and weight really starts to add up quickly.