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  1. #1
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Moderator's note: I've split this thread off from another thread in the foto3 organizational forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by BWGirl View Post
    Well, Scott... I get what you are saying here. I had a very good friend who was Deaf, and that is definitely a "closed society" type of culture. Our friendship ended because her Deaf friends did not want her to associate with a "hearing" person. No matter how much we had in common... no matter that we were like sisters born to different families.... nope... we were "different."

    I can understand wanting to socialize with people who are "like you" (no matter what that means) but I also tend to think that if you limit yourself to just people who are "like you" you miss a great many people who might be even more "like you" than sexual orientation or Deafness or any of the other things that separate us can offer. Should you set up a get together for people who are "like you"... sure! There should be an opportunity for us ladies to get together, or LF shooters, or people with facial hair, or what-ever. But don't restrict yourself to that box, Scott! There are plenty of us out here who are pretty fun people... regardless of how we define ourselves.
    Jeanette- If I were trying to restrict myself, I wouldn't be participating in this forum, and I wouldn't be posting this thread, and I wouldn't be trying to do this at this conference. As I've said elswhere, I love y'all to death, even when the great big crazy family that is APUG gets too dysfunctional for words. It just gets a bit tiresome at times having to listen to the sexist jokes in the joke forum, the ogling of the breasts-on-parade in the Gallery, among other things. It would be nice to meet a group of folks who understand where I'm coming from, and to talk to them IN ADDITION. See my earlier explanation of "Safe Space" in this thread.
    Last edited by David A. Goldfarb; 08-25-2007 at 10:29 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #2
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    ... It just gets a bit tiresome at times having to listen to the sexist jokes in the joke forum, the ogling of the breasts-on-parade in the Gallery, among other things. It would be nice to meet a group of folks who understand where I'm coming from, and to talk to them IN ADDITION. See my earlier explanation of "Safe Space" in this thread.
    I can respect and understand your reactions here... you are certainly entitled to expressing them as well.
    I am, however, having a rough time "handling" the characterization of nudes in the galleries as, " ... the ogling of breasts on parade in the Gallery."

    I am a contributor of "nudes" and I do NOT view my choice of subject as contributing to "ogling a parade of breasts."

    This certainly is off topic, but the excursion from the "survey question" WAS made, - and I felt the need to respond. I'll get back on topic in a moment.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    I am, however, having a rough time "handling" the characterization of nudes in the galleries as, " ... the ogling of breasts on parade in the Gallery."
    If 'number of views' is any indication (which it almost certainly is), then nudes command far more attention than well made photographs of rocks, trees and water. Whether or not that constitutes 'oogling' I leave to others to decide, but for me, oogling is certainly a part of it.
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    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jovo View Post
    If 'number of views' is any indication (which it almost certainly is), then nudes command far more attention than well made photographs of rocks, trees and water. Whether or not that constitutes 'oogling' I leave to others to decide, but for me, oogling is certainly a part of it.
    I have no problem with "ogling". Ogling is good - see "fascination".

    It is the "parade of breasts" bit - and the inferred sense of "lack of aesthetics" that frosts my cookie.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  5. #5
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    I have no problem with "ogling". Ogling is good - see "fascination".

    It is the "parade of breasts" bit - and the inferred sense of "lack of aesthetics" that frosts my cookie.
    Ed- when I said ogling, I specifically meant the comments that are the kind of stuff you expect to hear in the locker room or a smoke-filled lounge at the "gentlemans' club". I too look at the nudes, male AND female here, and if it's a good image, I want to appreciate it too. The comments that many people leave - the sort of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't SHE a hot one!" kind of comments, are a real distraction from appreciation of a work of art. It also detracts from it as a work of art (even if it is) and turns it into a work of titillation, which is uninteresting to observe. I don't want to share what twists someone else's knickers, and I don't want verbal confirmation that it has twisted the same knickers of a dozen other people. Especially when it's men commenting on women and objectifying them. Observe the ratio of men commenting on female nudes vs women commenting, and observe the comments. Most of the comments on the female nudes are not about the image, but about how pretty the model is. Pretty models are nice, but unless you're shooting softcore, how pretty the model is should be irrelevant to the quality of the image.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    ...I specifically meant the comments that are the kind of stuff you expect to hear in the locker room or a smoke-filled lounge at the "gentlemans' club"....The comments that many people leave - the sort of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't SHE a hot one!"...
    Two things here Scott...

    Many people leave such comments? Maybe I need to read more comments. I confess that I don't read comments for images unless I'm one of the commentors. So I'm sincerely asking...is this really a pervasive thing here. If it is, I find that surprising and discouraging.

    Second...if it's so...I can understand how that would tend to inform an argument for a "safe zone" for women but I'm not sure that i understand how it oppresses gay men. To the extent that any viewer may choose to perceive any given nude as porn or cheesecake, it's understood that men are greater "consumers" of erotica than are women. But I'm not led to believe that straight men are more directed in thjis way than are gay men. So I would have assumed that any given gay man would be as likely to have that kind of reaction to a male nude as would any given straight man to a female nude. Am I way off base?

    I aplogize for the continued diversion but I find this really interesting and can't resist the inquiry.
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. In velit arcu, consequat at, interdum sit amet, consequat in, quam.

  7. #7
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    ... The comments that many people leave - the sort of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't SHE a hot one!" kind of comments, are a real distraction from appreciation of a work of art. It also detracts from it as a work of art (even if it is) and turns it into a work of titillation, which is uninteresting to observe. I don't want to share what twists someone else's knickers, and I don't want verbal confirmation that it has twisted the same knickers of a dozen other people. Especially when it's men commenting on women and objectifying them. Observe the ratio of men commenting on female nudes vs women commenting, and observe the comments. Most of the comments on the female nudes are not about the image, but about how pretty the model is. Pretty models are nice, but unless you're shooting softcore, how pretty the model is should be irrelevant to the quality of the image.
    I dislike quoting so extensively, but this is certainly a sensitive subject, so I feel I must, to avoid misunderstandings as a result of taking statements out-of-context.

    I have NOT read critques, or comments, of nude work here on APUG that would meet the criteria of "wink, wink... etc", that you specify, nor anything that I sense as a "twisting toward titilation." With that, I do not read each and every critique, so I may have missed them.

    The question that arises in my mind is the difference in the sensitivity levels between us. What would help in this discussion would be the identification of specific images in the "parade of breasts" and the attached "objectifying, locker room" comments that seem to be so ubiquitous to you, will follow.

    The statement that, "This model is beautiful" seems to be offensive to you... and I can't quite understand why. It may well be that I am TRYING to capture that beauty (happens often, with a variety of subjects), and I see that as a noble quest. Statements indicating success (or - grit teeth - the lack of it) are of great interest (and appreciation).

    Back to it ... where are these "titillation twisting" images?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  8. #8
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Ed- I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here. And I'm also not the only one who has noticed a trend in comments regarding images. Ask Suzanne, or Jeanette, or heck, even Sanders McNew. I suspect, Ed, that any example I could point to, or even group of examples, you and I would disagree on. It is late, I'm tired, and this is off-topic for this thread. I'd be happy to discuss this elsewhere, perhaps in the lounge?

  9. #9
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Mike-

    Maybe other gay men are insensitive to it and could care less. I do care because in the process of coming to an awareness of who I was, and dealing with others' attempts to enforce their perception of my gender identity (oh, you're gay, so you must want to be a woman? No, I'm just a male-identified male... etc), I learned to see through other people's eyes.

    I also find it off-putting because it IS frequent, and it is a form of ramming YOUR sexuality down my throat. If I tell you I'm gay, I get accused of "wearing it on my sleeve" or "thrusting it in your face". If I talked about male nudes the way some people talk about female nudes, I'd have every nutjob from here to Poughkeepsie badgering Sean to ban me for pornographic remarks. In this particular case, it would be extremely disingenuous of me to talk that way about male nudes posted here, since I post most of them. Regardless, however, I would find it inappropriate to discuss them in that regard because cheesecake/soft-porn is not the purpose of APUG.

    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    Two things here Scott...

    Many people leave such comments? Maybe I need to read more comments. I confess that I don't read comments for images unless I'm one of the commentors. So I'm sincerely asking...is this really a pervasive thing here. If it is, I find that surprising and discouraging.

    Second...if it's so...I can understand how that would tend to inform an argument for a "safe zone" for women but I'm not sure that i understand how it oppresses gay men. To the extent that any viewer may choose to perceive any given nude as porn or cheesecake, it's understood that men are greater "consumers" of erotica than are women. But I'm not led to believe that straight men are more directed in thjis way than are gay men. So I would have assumed that any given gay man would be as likely to have that kind of reaction to a male nude as would any given straight man to a female nude. Am I way off base?

    I aplogize for the continued diversion but I find this really interesting and can't resist the inquiry.

  10. #10
    sly
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    I'd like to comment as a female to this line. I have been uncomfortable with the trend in the nudes seen here to be 90% young, thin to anorexic, sexualized objects shot by men. I have seen nudes I liked, and I posted a few of my own just to break up a string of nudes that was going on at the time with scrawny young women. I'm not a prude, am comfortable on clothing optional beaches, or hot tubbing sans suits with friends. I've done a lot of nude and semi-nude photography, but I would be uncomfortable posting most of it here. I feel it would be breaking the trust I developed with the women (and their partners/families) to post those images on such a public forum. There are many of those images on display in my office, with their consent, and that feels fine. I guess it is the possibility of "nudge nudge wink wink" that keeps me from posting any of those images here. Sly

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