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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    Let's chill out a bit.

    I understood the original topic to be a question of "Whether or not there were situations where photographs should NOT have been taken". I agree with this. Yes there ARE.
    Along the line, there was reference to a web site,
    [ http://www.unphotographable.com ], supporting the idea that, YES, there were - and describing the circumstances behind the individual photographers' decisions.
    To add to the mix, I posted a description of a situation where I had decided NOT to take a photograph, and something of my thoughts behind that decision.

    If you understood the subject to be something else ... "Do you think anyone has the - ANY - "right", or divine duty - or something similar - to prevent another photographer from taking a photograph"" - I would have to say "Yes", rarely - but those circumstances would be limited to a much narrower field.

    Read my posts again - I say, repeatedly, that the decision to take, or not take a photograph is one to be made by the photographer. I have neither the responsibility nor the desire to determine what another photographer will do.



    What was "too lighthearted"? My response, where I was trying to make sense of what you wrote: - Or your original statement?



    You lost me here. I agree and support everything in this last quote. I'm just going to have to think - a lot - about why you seem to have interpreted what I had written differently.
    The 'too light hearted' is in response to making a poll of something that is quite likely introspection that should bring a level of contemplation within us that doesn't raise itself to the seriousness of the other subjects raised in this post. I would find this sort of internal regressive thought pattern more amusing than anything else.

    I will re-read your original post and see if it's my interpretation that is faulty in the context of our dialog.

    tim in san jose
    Where ever you are, there you be.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke View Post
    Remember, this thread is not about publication, it is about whether others should be allowed to photograph.

    tasteless


    inappropriate


    irreverent


    disrespectful


    Better to confiscate all the cameras.


    T-t-t-talkin' 'bout my gennnnerAtion....


    (And no Ray, you still didnt answer -- when people make sweeping generalizations and can't cite even ONE example, it sets off my b.s. detector.)
    g'day all

    bjorke, i'm quite confused by your posting, all these images have been published, what is your point?

    sorry to tweak your BS meter, but maybe you know more about BS than most

  3. #83
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    Turnabout

    As a poster noted, the discussion moved quickly away from the train accident incident and the motivation to make a photograph of such a thing. We have seen some striking photographs, most of which have been very compelling images. Back to the original subject, the "inappropriateness" of capturing the train incident. For those who have difficulty visualizing such a thing, here is a train accident photo.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails customs.jpg  
    Patrick

    something witty and profound needs to be inserted here...

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Heath View Post
    sorry to tweak your BS meter, but maybe you know more about BS than most
    heh

    dude, I'm in marketing and show biz -- I can detect the type of grass eaten from 20 yards.

    Patrick, do you have any details on this photo, or on your motivations for showing it, and its ramifications? Did you shoot it?

    It's a gruesome and thus strong photo. A problem with strong photos (and a strength) is that they take on their own lives in the mind of the viewer. You have created no clear context in which to channel that force. As such I can't tell if you purpose is to shock, to illustrate a humane point or a hostile one, or... what?

    BTW, this entire issue is far more complex than any APUG thread and I'd recommend to all two books: Sontag's Regarding the Pain of Others and Hauser's Moral Minds
    Last edited by bjorke; 09-15-2007 at 06:01 PM. Click to view previous post history.

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  5. #85
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke View Post


    BTW, this entire issue is far more complex than any APUG thread and I'd recommend to all two books: Sontag's Regarding the Pain of Others and Hauser's Moral Minds
    OK, first, I'd like to apologize to anyone who had hoped this thread was done for good. I'm not trying to stir the pot. (I tuned out of this discussion quite awhile ago myself) I don't really have a point, but I must share something I heard this evening on the radio. This is only a paraphrase and I readily admit that my facts may not be entirely correct.

    This evening I heard a radio interview with Pulitzer prize winning (and fellow Canadian) photojournalist Paul Watson, in regards to his book "Where War Lives." For those of you who have forgotten, Watson is the man who snapped the now famous shot of American Staff Sgt. David Cleveland whose body was dragged and degraded in the streets of Mogadishu in 1993. (The inspiration for the film Black Hawk Down) Watson happened upon the scene almost by accident, and instantly recognized a scene of journalistic importance. He had recently described a similar event (which he had not photographed) only to have his claims flatly denied by every American official connected to the mission. This new event then provided him an opportunity to prove his case. As he prepared to snap the shutter, Watson says he heard a voice, loud and clear, in his head and in the air, "If you do this, I will own you forever." (that was the line in the interview that made me stop the car and grab my pencil)

    The photo has followed Watson ever since. It earned him the Pulitzer Prize, and played no small part in reshaping the role of U.S. troops in Somalia and no doubt was a factor in the West's refusal to intervene in Rwanda. The photo also handed a great victory to one Osama bin Laden, who learned the power of imagery in promoting terror. Watson has never really recovered from that experience. The image and the accompanying voice haunts him to this day. He suffers from deep depression and speaks as someone burdened with a great weight.

    Should the picture have been taken? To Watson, it is not an easy question. It is an image that does not easily leave the mind. It may have done more bad in the world than any good in the name of journalism.

    Here is an article which tells the story much better than I have.
    http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...d-73340a9a7752
    Last edited by Toffle; 09-24-2007 at 09:59 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Added URL
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

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  6. #86
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    Take the photo if you're of a mind to. If others object they'll no doubt let you know. It strikes me as humorous that some of the most vocal posters on this thread have been foremost in offending the sensibilities of some members in the recent past. Maybe sensibilities are an individual thing best left to individual judgments? Perish the thought...

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toffle View Post
    The photo has followed Watson ever since. It earned him the Pulitzer Prize, and played no small part in reshaping the role of U.S. troops in Somalia and no doubt was a factor in the West's refusal to intervene in Rwanda. The photo also handed a great victory to one Osama bin Laden, who learned the power of imagery in promoting terror. Watson has never really recovered from that experience. The image and the accompanying voice haunts him to this day. He suffers from deep depression and speaks as someone burdened with a great weight.

    Should the picture have been taken? To Watson, it is not an easy question. It is an image that does not easily leave the mind. It may have done more bad in the world than any good in the name of journalism.
    You're going to blame a great courageous photograph for the lack of balls in American foriegn policy? You going tell me OBL didn't know how to shock the hell out of the west long before this picture was taken?

    You have got to rethink the whole equation. Jeez, I am shaking at the thought that that photo did any of these things. That weak little people (with a lot of power) hide behind that image and blame so much on one very strong person. That he is beset by doubt now, I just hope like hell he gets some help.

    Maybe you too.

    Damn! That picture HAD to be taken.

    tim in san jose
    Where ever you are, there you be.

  8. #88
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_jupiter View Post
    You're going to blame a great courageous photograph for the lack of balls in American foriegn policy? You going tell me OBL didn't know how to shock the hell out of the west long before this picture was taken?

    You have got to rethink the whole equation. Jeez, I am shaking at the thought that that photo did any of these things. That weak little people (with a lot of power) hide behind that image and blame so much on one very strong person. That he is beset by doubt now, I just hope like hell he gets some help.

    Maybe you too.

    Damn! That picture HAD to be taken.

    tim in san jose
    Tim, I'm really not trying to stir a post-911 debate. I heard this story for only the first time this evening, and was most moved by the prophetic pronouncement Watson heard as he took the picture and the effect it has had on him in the years since.

    Also, the stated effects of the photo are not my opinion. Google it.

    OK, I'm sorry I brought it up.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  9. #89

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    Tom,

    Sorry to infer anything personal. I don't need to Google anything. I am not a product of the mass media, I don't listen to talking heads to define my thoughts.

    But my thoughts about the power of photographer vs. people hiding behind some theory of how that photograph cause all this to come down is very clear. You can run but you can't hide. That man did a service to this world.

    I will repeat, that photograph needed to be made. That the world made bad decisions based on it is not his problem.

    tim in san jose
    Where ever you are, there you be.

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