The argument in this thread, from the original article is not that digital offer manipulation not possible with analog.
The argument is that its so easy now for every amateur and common person that not only alteration is accepted, but has become so much part of the photography memory that even the most common snapshots are questionable.
If you take the time to read my post and the article, you will understand that is not about the known and acceptable alterations in propaganda and the star system but the removal of truth of the memories of simple people, of the whole humanity.
It is Photoshop now that dictates and creates our memories, not our experiences.
Like I said IT IS NOT ABOUT ARTISTIC OR PROFESSIONAL MANIPULATION.
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aristotelis grammatikakis www.arigram.gr black & white film is sexy
Actually, I'm not sure it is all that much easier... it's just a different skill set. And I am still confused as to why lines need to be drawn... ... but remember that I have a testosterone defficiency... . Film and digital both offer many opportunities to alter the scene that was taken in the camera so that the output becomes different. Does no one here realize that even negatives can be changed or sandwiched???
I agree with Chris... why in the name of Pete (or Ansel for that matter) do we have to draw a line? If we strive for purity in photography does that mean we have to stop dodging, burning & cropping in the darkroom? These "either/or" arguments are drivel.
It is much easier in Photoshop let say to take two photographs, make them simillar (by adding or remove noise, make colour or tone correction, etc...) and to combine them than in analogue darkroom. Imagine make combination of two photographs, one made with APX25 and developed in Perceptol and other made with Delta 3200 developed in Rodinal, and on resulting photogaph not to see anything which will make you think it is not combination of two (or more) photographs.
Next, when one dodge/burn photograph, or crop it, it is still original scene, scene which existed in particular time and space. Photograph like in link in my previous post never existed in time and space. That make huge difference and also that make argument that cropping, dodging and burning in analogue darkroom are same as Photoshop combining is not valid.
If we take for example cropping as argument, and say this photograph is excerption from scene because it contain not whole scene, then argument also can be that anything is excerption from scene. In that case any photograph should contain whole Cosmos, because anything which don't contain Cosmos is excerption from scene, not complete scene. It is pointless, so cropping as manipulation argument is not real argument.
Yes, I can make photograph for example of man with raised hands, and not to show his fists. It would look as photograph of man who surrender. In reality, he holds a riffle in his fists over his head, and not surrending. But, even if that photograph doesn't show whole reality, his hands were riased, and it is reality, only part of reality. But, having photograph of man with raised empty hands, and having other photograph of riffle, and combining them to put riffle in his hands shows something never existed in reality, nor as part nor as whole scene. That is difference.
Yes, photo manipulation allways exsisted, but that is not point. Point is, as Ari said, digital made manipulation so easily avaliable to wider audience, and people are so ready to do it because of how easy it is (compared to analogue).
And because of people's readyness to do it, it make all difference.
It is not photography anymore, it is design. That is all difference to me. Photoshop is designers software. Photographers needs about 20% of Photoshop tools to do what they did in analogue darkroom. Other 80% of Photoshop are designers tools, not photographers tools.
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Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...
I sort of wonder if the fact that making alterations to photos has become a tool of the 'masses,' rather than the 'masters' is what truly has our 'undies in a bunch!'
I think you nailed at homer with this statement.
My younger brother who never really took a photograph made some incredibly awesome images with his new Pentax digisnap and Photoshop I bought him for his recent wedding. The technologies today allow anyone to learn quicker and produce results that often took years to do.
Anyway, it's all related. Once the masses can manipulate reality, the master guilds fret about 'their' little secret.
It is Photoshop now that dictates and creates our memories, not our experiences.
I have to disagree Ari. I think many humans have long wanted to alter memories. In words, in photos, on the net, in their memories. Who has embellished themselves in parties or heavens on their resume? In some extremes, people used mind altering drugs and alcohol in a course of self destruction to wash out painful memories or to enrich their otherwise bleak life. This was anathema for many. Now they can use Photoshop (and blame it too - two for the price of one!)
The power of photography is that it gives the impression of having some sense of veracity with the objective world, while in fact it is, at its core, a completely tactile medium, capable of limitless manipulation. It is this dichotomy between what we believe photographs to be (records of 'the truth') and what they in fact are (manipulated recordings of light) that gives photography its power to become a tool for, not only propaganda by governments and other power structures but, universal mediation. Fashion model cover shots typically are photoshopped to remove blemishes and other imperfections from the model's image. This is also propaganda, in that it serves to sell the belief that some women are the ideal of perfection, no doubt due to the products being sold.
~Joe
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Joe, what you said is true. But it is not issue. No one object manipulation in art, fashion, experimental, advertizing (now, that is questionable, but still let say aceptable) and like forms of photography. Problem is when manipulation is made in let say documentary photography, either in media, or "personal". I have seen in one magazine (I think it was PP) several years ago, when digital just started to entering masses, in example of article how to make photo from two different photographs, image of nude girl in harem of mosque (it seems islamic radicals don't read that magazine or there will be troubles). Nude girl in mosque or mosque's harem is something which is hardly to ever happen in reality. So, imagine someone returning from touristic trip in Arabic countries, and showing photograph to friends to show image like that. And to claim (s)he made that photograph. And things like that are spreading over "real documentary" photographs like magazine and/or newspapers photographs. That is when problems starts.
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Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...
If one wants to know how truthful my photographs are they can just take a look at the negatives.
Sure, there is always the subtlety of lighting and composition, but that is comparing the syntax and punctuation of a phrase to completely censoring and replacing words.
I will disagree with the first assessment you make Art, in regards to professionals being afraid of losing their jobs and secrets to amateurs. I know enough of bad professional photographers and good amateur ones not to confuse myself about the skills and qualities of each "title". A mediocre professional that makes money of his work is just a professional like any other. A skilled and creative amateur could be an artist, one that doesn't do it for the money (only) but for the creation itself.
As regards to the second, yes, we humans always wanted to alter our memories and we do that at each opportunity. We try to keep good memories from past events and hide or alter the bad ones. I remember how often I was told that my time in the army would be something to fondly remember (because supposedly life was easy compared to the civilian one), yet I still have nightmares once in a while about being back there (and I was not even in a warzone). We try to let our heart breaks fade in the past and exaggerate and give importance to our good love affairs. We suppress and suppress and suppress as hard as we can our bad memories. Of course it is desirable. Of course it seems like a good idea at the time. But such decisions are ones that will come to bite us later. Sure, we might eradicate a bad event from our past in our photos. And soon from our consciousness. But the feelings will remain and the subconscious will revolt some day. And we grow old, basing our all existence in lies and falsehoods. We turn back at our past life and remember only what was convenient at the time. And some day, someone from the past, whom we deleted from photographs and memories might come back. A pain in our heart we cannot place. Perfect photographs from perfect memories of perfect events of a perfect life. Is that what humans have turned to? Living a lie, altering our memories to fit a certain dream, a certain ideal, a certain fear. Fear, cowardice, insecurity, irresponsibility, immaturity and so on.
Maybe we aren't yet at the level of Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, but soon we will be hiring Memory Coaches to alter our past and the evidence of it for our convenience.
Its one thing to have rabid nationalists and religious fanatics created out of lies and propaganda and another to have all human experience being a lie.
When Memory, when Life gets Photoshopped.
__________________
aristotelis grammatikakis www.arigram.gr black & white film is sexy
If one wants to know how truthful my photographs are they can just take a look at the negatives.
Sure, there is always the subtlety of lighting and composition, but that is comparing the syntax and punctuation of a phrase to completely censoring and replacing words.
I will disagree with the first assessment you make Art, in regards to professionals being afraid of losing their jobs and secrets to amateurs. I know enough of bad professional photographers and good amateur ones not to confuse myself about the skills and qualities of each "title". A mediocre professional that makes money of his work is just a professional like any other. A skilled and creative amateur could be an artist, one that doesn't do it for the money (only) but for the creation itself.
As regards to the second, yes, we humans always wanted to alter our memories and we do that at each opportunity. We try to keep good memories from past events and hide or alter the bad ones. I remember how often I was told that my time in the army would be something to fondly remember (because supposedly life was easy compared to the civilian one), yet I still have nightmares once in a while about being back there (and I was not even in a warzone). We try to let our heart breaks fade in the past and exaggerate and give importance to our good love affairs. We suppress and suppress and suppress as hard as we can our bad memories. Of course it is desirable. Of course it seems like a good idea at the time. But such decisions are ones that will come to bite us later. Sure, we might eradicate a bad event from our past in our photos. And soon from our consciousness. But the feelings will remain and the subconscious will revolt some day. And we grow old, basing our all existence in lies and falsehoods. We turn back at our past life and remember only what was convenient at the time. And some day, someone from the past, whom we deleted from photographs and memories might come back. A pain in our heart we cannot place. Perfect photographs from perfect memories of perfect events of a perfect life. Is that what humans have turned to? Living a lie, altering our memories to fit a certain dream, a certain ideal, a certain fear. Fear, cowardice, insecurity, irresponsibility, immaturity and so on.
Maybe we aren't yet at the level of Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, but soon we will be hiring Memory Coaches to alter our past and the evidence of it for our convenience.
Its one thing to have rabid nationalists and religious fanatics created out of lies and propaganda and another to have all human experience being a lie.
When Memory, when Life gets Photoshopped.
wow.
as i read what you wrote i couldn't help think of the
talking heads song (linked to).
it is about waking up from a dream ( one's life ) and realizing that none of it is true, everything that
you thought was true was just an empty lie. video lyrics
... but remember that I have a testosterone defficiency... 
. Film and digital both offer many opportunities to alter the scene that was taken in the camera so that the output becomes different. Does no one here realize that even negatives can be changed or sandwiched???
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