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  1. #91
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie
    One fault with Ed's assumption that it is not the act but a representation. It holds if it is a medium such as oil painting, but in photography it is not. What are we photographing? Is it not the scene we focus on? So where it is just a photograph, it was taken of the event/scene. Yes go at the perpetrators, but who is photographing them?
    In this case, the photographer is - *very definitely* one of the perpetrators - just as the "lookout" driving the car is at some level - guilty of bank robbery.

    The only course of action that makes any sense at all to me, is devoting an enormous effort toward the prevention of this *violent* crime - and make no mistake - it *IS* violent.
    The way I see it - all the agonizing over the "evidence" will only serve to dilute the efforts toward prevention in the future.

    We should use *every* tool we have in our arsenal - including socialogical, psychiatric, - even - gasp - severe introspection into our own ethics and values - to eliminate *ALL* crimes of violence.

    Other societies in this world are *FAR* less violent than ours - what are they doing - right- that we are not?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  2. #92
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Aggie, the two are not mutual exclusive.
    If the act depicted is illegal and if the photographer is a participant you have criminals and evidence -- no arguments. Would you have us go the further step confiscate/censor all photographic depictions of illegal acts and arrest the photographer -- even if it is staged and the act broke no laws?

    On the one hand it is easy to use the literal nature of photography to identify a crime and the criminals (or is it). On the other it has been easy for the us to start down the slippery slope that Ed describes.

    Arrest the criminals, but don't censor images unless they are clearly infringing upon someone's rights, and those rights need to be significant to trump free speech. Make the bar high, because freedom of speech is too valuable.

    *

  3. #93

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    Other societies in this world are *FAR* less violent than ours - what are they doing - right- that we are not?
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    Ed Sukach, FFP.


    The only one I can think of is Canada. Certainly not Europeans, much less Asians (e.g. they let the kids eat grass (notice how brown the football pitches are) in North Korea and reroute the food aid to His Majesty's army). Perhaps Australians (not too sure here). Most definitely not Central or South Americans (they kill priests with the best of them). AND DEFINITELY NOT AFRICANS! English? Well perhaps not in Gloucestershire. I live in Sweden - THE SWEDISH MODEL sucks and it certainly is a place where life is cheap (i.e. you would go to jail far longer via tax envasion than via first degree murder). Nope, I do not think that US society is far more violent than others. I would say that you are average at worst.

  4. #94
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco
    Other societies in this world are *FAR* less violent than ours - what are they doing - right- that we are not?
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    Ed Sukach, FFP.


    The only one I can think of is Canada. Certainly not Europeans, I would say that you are average at worst.
    I really should check out the recent crime reports from the World Health Organization. Unless it has changed drastically, the murder rate in the United States was second only to South Africa. If I remember correctly, the lowest crime rate - of all crimes - was from Iceland.

    There has been an increase in serous crime both in Great Britain and Australia. Australia has seen a major increase in murders, and in Great Britain it is in assaults and "Hot Burglaries", where the home is occupied at the time - here in the united States it is known as "Home Invasion". Come to think of it, I remember a recent report where it was stated that you are eight times more likely to be assaulted - "mugged" - in London than you are in New York City.

    However - I wouldn't have absolute faith in the above information.

    This has struck a nerve ... I'll check it out.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  5. #95

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    Ed you are absolutely right. The last time I checked a site with statistics on crime the US was certainly in the top 3. Nevertheless the kind of crime is what I am getting at when I talk about violent societies. You do not see hoardes of people roaming the US Southwest using machetes on women and children. I believe that the crime rate of a nation does not represent its society's violent tendencies. It is just a number of how many murders, burglaries, rapes etc. per capita are committed.

  6. #96
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    I'm trying to think of a more efficient "measure"...

    Any suggestions?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  7. #97
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    The crime rate in some of the countries mentioned are lower simply because they are not reported. If they were reported to the degree of accuracy they are here in the USA their rates would probably be many times what it is here. In places where life is cheap no one says much about another dead body much less reports it to the authorities. That would be a good way to join the ranks of the deceased.
    Gary Beasley

  8. #98

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    Ooh thats a tricky one Ed. Statistics are certainly deceiving as I believe crime rate does not necessarily correlate with violent nature. Is there allowances to be made for cultural and religious differences? I believe in the Aristotlean Ethical principle that there exists one higher order for judging all acts. What that is and can it be objectively put down on paper is a huge undertaking. What I do know is this, having lived in the Philippines for 21 years I have seen violence against children that makes me believe there are people out there that have no problem killing on a mass scale (e.g. tribes in Africa, North Korean leader, etc.) if they can profit from it. This is not part of crime statistics, nor are they considered a crime against the world, which is why most do not act decisively against these societies.

  9. #99
    jd callow's Avatar
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    we are soo much better than all those backwater republics and dictatorships that a few infringements upon our basic freedoms is no big thing.

    We will still be richer and more powerful than them and that is what counts.

    of course we could always

    "...invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."
    Ann Coulter

    Hyperbole being the better part of winning an argument
    Last edited by mrcallow; 05-23-2004 at 03:44 PM. Click to view previous post history.

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  10. #100
    mobtown_4x5's Avatar
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    We incarcerate a greater percentage of our citizens than any society, past or present, in the history of the planet. Repressive political states, China, Nazi Germany, USSR, etc. included.

    Just a fact, I'll leave the explainations to others more learned than I.

    Matt

    edited for spelling
    Last edited by mobtown_4x5; 05-23-2004 at 06:48 PM. Click to view previous post history.



 

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