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  1. #21
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    I don't see any purpose in showing more photos from Iraq in respect to the prison issue. The whole world is aware of the kind of abuse going on by now. Besides, if it was you being humiliated in those images, would you want to have it shown on every network over and over? These people have been humiliated enough, let them have some peace. In regards to their censorship, they never should have been shown in the first place in accord with the Geneva Convention. I find it appalling that liberals like to cry out that the people in custody are not being treated according to the Geneva Convention, but when something like this happens, they are perfectly willing to throw the Convention out and show the photos in order to embarass the Bush administration. I guess the Geneva Convention is only applied when it's convenient.

    As for censorship as a whole, for those who feel there should be none at all, would you feel the same if "Hustler" could show it's programming on network television during Saturday morning cartoons? Don't think they wouldn't do it if they could. The bottom line is money, and if they would rake it in using that time slot on those networks, they would do it in a heartbeat.

  2. #22
    blansky's Avatar
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    I failed to mention the excellent work of Leni Reifenstahl who glorified a regime who would later be vilified and obviously rightly so.

    However if a person grew up in a depressed country and a new and supposedly charismatic leader set a new course and brought the country out of its doldrums into a sort of Sparta, (remember her work was relatively early on in the regime), should she be blamed for their misdeeds.

    I'm sure she wasn't cooerced into doing her work.It was an exciting opportunity, and she excelled.

    Comments.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  3. #23
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    Your right, Michael. She shouldn't be blamed for the atrocities personally. But we as people do get caught up in things early that can end up very bad. We need to exercise judgement, but often we fail. These new things are exciting and we are proud to be included early. We are willing to blind ourselves to the growing evil because we would have to face the fact that what we are involved in is wrong. It's a common theme in movies. A good kid makes friends with a trouble maker and ends up doing something very wrong. It does happen. What bothers me the most is when the world tells us to tolerate it, because it might end up for the better. Case in point, when Hitler took Austria and then Czechoslovakia the world didn't do anything because they hoped he would be satisfied. They even called Winston Churchill a "war-mongerer" for wanting to do something about it. But when the Nazis invaded Poland and France, they realized what a monster they had allowed Hitler to become. I know most people here are against the war in Iraq, but Hussein tried invading Iran and Kuwait. How long did we really have to wait to do something? Did we need an attack on Israel? Europe? WMD notwithstanding, in the end the world is better off.

    PS, Humpty Dumpty wasn't pushed, he was deceived into believing someone would catch him.

  4. #24
    Aggie's Avatar
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    But was it peer pressure that pushed Humpty Dumpty?

  5. #25
    bjorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregdavis
    I find it appalling that liberals like to cry out that the people in custody are not being treated according to the Geneva Convention, but when something like this happens, they are perfectly willing to throw the Convention out and show the photos in order to embarass the Bush administration.
    Ridiculous. They do it in order to sell newspapers.

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
    KBPhotoRantPhotoPermitAPUG flickr Robot

  6. #26
    David R Munson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregdavis
    I find it appalling that liberals like to cry out that the people in custody are not being treated according to the Geneva Convention, but when something like this happens, they are perfectly willing to throw the Convention out and show the photos in order to embarass the Bush administration. I guess the Geneva Convention is only applied when it's convenient.
    The problem isn't liberals. If the Geneva Convention is being violated and there's visual proof, why shouldn't people be made aware of it? To hell with embarassing the Bush administration - what about press freedom? The Geneva Convention means nothing without a means to publicly acknowledge whether or not it is being properly enforced.

    And, I might also point out, the liberal media is a myth. The American media is by far more conservative than it is liberal. It is a convenient myth for right wing career politicians who are intent on left-bashing to advance their own interests.

    If you don't like the way the images of prisoners are being used in the media, that's fine. Fact of the matter is that I don't either. But find something other than liberals to pin blame on.

    Now then, on to other things.

    Censorship in nearly every form and application is, I believe, fundamentally wrong. About the only form of censorship I agree with is moderate parental controls over what children come in contact with. If you don't want your kids to see certain things, that's fine, but you have to take that responsibility on yourself. However, for a society to constantly bowdlerize everything from commercials to literature to photography is to quickly tumble backwards down a slope away from progress.

    As my hacker friends like to say, information is meant to be free. I like to change the specifics of this and say that art is meant to be free. Not just visual arts, but performance, literature, etc. Art should not, and indeed cannot be censored or limited on the level of a community or society if we are to move forward at all. Make yourself blind to that which you find objectionable and you solve nothing. Ignorance and blind rejection only magnify existing problems.

    As others have pointed out, free expression within the arts and free distribution of art throughout society has benefits that hugely outweigh any discomfort felt by some in encountering a few things they don't like. It is a very worthy investment, as in the long run for every bit of effort governing bodies and other groups put in promoting and encouraging the arts, the societal gains are tenfold. To censor is to deny this outright and treat the unknown with fear rather than with an honest evaluation of the matter at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    However the fact remains that Sally Manns children had no control over their images that are throughout the world. They received no compensation, and had no say in their usage. The case could be made that since they no longer look like that ( grown up) then they are not really victimized. It's a tough question.
    Actually, as I understand it they've always had a say about whether or not they would be photogrpahed in the first place. I remember seeing in an article or review somewhere her daughter remarking that for a period of time around adolescence she objected and her moother didn't photograph her. She later reconsidered and was ok with it again.

  7. #27
    Aggie's Avatar
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    The problem isn't liberals. If the Geneva Convention is being violated and there's visual proof, why shouldn't people be made aware of it? To hell with embarassing the Bush administration - what about press freedom? The Geneva Convention means nothing without a means to publicly acknowledge whether or not it is being properly enforced.

    And, I might also point out, the liberal media is a myth. The American media is by far more conservative than it is liberal. It is a convenient myth for right wing career politicians who are intent on left-bashing to advance their own interests.

    If you don't like the way the images of prisoners are being used in the media, that's fine. Fact of the matter is that I don't either. But find something other than liberals to pin blame on.
    Before the knee jerk two step goes much further I want to interject. The pictures being shown are not of just what our soldiers did, but how about the atrocities that were done like the murders? Remember the pictures taken by the iraqi's of prisoners being tortured, hung set on flame and such from a bridge and then their bodies being drug through the streets? That happened well before the pictures at issue were taken. Or how about the recent beheading that took nearly 15 minutes to accomplish that was shown? that happened before the pictures our soldiers took (weeks ago) theirs. Yet we are willing to stop those photos? Both should be shown if one is shown. No wonder I refuse to watch general tv programing.

    As for the liberal media verses the conservative media? both are myths. try Corporate entities that are willing to print what ever the people in that region are willing to pay for! It's dollars that drive media.

    Realistically it comes down to choices. Would I fund the NEA? NO. Why? Because I would make a choice to fund those things that I deem more relevant than the arts. Right now there is a crisis with Social Security. I would rather feed an elderly person and make sure they have adequate medical care than fund the NEA. Sure I like the idea of helping communities with problems by teaching them the arts. But if I had to look at the community and only had so many dollars to spend which would i do? Would I take care of the people and make sure they have health care and food, or would I give them a teacher to teach dance? Hard decisions. I know which I would choose. I wish there was enough money to go around for everything but there isn't.

    Should the arts be censored? No! should you take responsibility for doing the censorship if it offends you? yes! You have the right to turn off the television, not go to a movie, not buy a magazine, not read a newspaper, not surf the internet. If everyone thought the same as you, the media that produced the art would soon go out of business.

    Yeah a while back I started a thread about people on here who had porn sites as their web links on their profiles. Now what was the real problem with that? they were bogus names that were only used to join with so their websites would get more traffic and there fore profit. It was not about art or photography it was about commercialism in its worst form. (sorry Mike but that is one commercialism I abhor)

  8. #28
    blansky's Avatar
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    I wrote this on the Iraqi thread as well:

    Someone mentioned the Geneva Convention. I'm not certain what it says but I think that it was a code of conduct about surrendering soldiers. However soldiers were probably defined as "in uniform".

    In previous wars there was kind of a mutual repect of uniformed soldiers who surrendered. If you were out of uniform you were routinely executed. Any "snake in the grass" individuals such as even uniformed snipers as well as rebels/partisans/resistance types were also executed.

    In Iraq where these "insurgents" are blending in with the population and then striking from alleyways etc, and then blending back in the population, I'm not sure the Geneva Comvention applies to them.

    Even if it does their tactics don't garner them much respect, hence they are regarded as less than "soldiers".


    Faguzi Dave wrote:

    Actually, as I understand it they've always had a say about whether or not they would be photogrpahed in the first place. I remember seeing in an article or review somewhere her daughter remarking that for a period of time around adolescence she objected and her moother didn't photograph her. She later reconsidered and was ok with it again.
    I saw her grown up children inverviewed and they had sort of a mixed reaction to the pictures. But the point is can a child "consent" to anything.
    They obviously have no concept of what the images are about and where they are going and the long term ramifications.


    As for the burned up "contractors" in Iraq whom some believe are really just mercenaries, that were hanging from the bridge picture, their vehicle was hit by a rocket grenade I believe, and already burned up. The yahoos in the pictures had just taken the bodies from the vehicle and hung them up. Although gross enough, they did not take living or dead bodies and burn them.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  9. #29
    Aggie's Avatar
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    my mistake on that one Michael.

  10. #30
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Agreed!
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

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