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  1. #61

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    Declaring both sides as crooks is common strategy used to discourage independent voters while relying on core base. Its been most frequently used of late by Republicans in their character asassination campaigns. A conservative congressman few years ago declared he would not run for re-election because 95-99% of his colleagues did not believe what they said. That really doesn't bother me for it means they're open to persuasion from their constituents. What scares me is the true believers - Tom DeLay, George W., John Ashcroft - who believe they're doing the work of god in bringing forth an armageddon ( see bjorke's link above to Guardian article). The right-wing (eg, freepers) and religious fundamentalists are the greatest danger to democracy & freedom in America. They already stole one election ( if the recount in Florida had gone the way the judge appointed to oversee the recount had planned, Gore would be President - a fact largely ignored by US media including so-called "liberal" media); and we're quickly heading towards being just another banana republic ( politically & economically - see Krugman's analysis). Just ordered a new bumper sticker, "One Nation - Under Surveillance".
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    "Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"

  2. #62

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    I am not calling politicians crooks, although there are examples from each party. They are most interested in maintaining there power base and staying in office then looking out for the general good of the people. To do this many will simply put a moistened finger in the air and see which way the wind blows. This is one of Kerry's problems, no real core beliefs that anyone can identify with. That is why it is very difficult for a senator to be elected president. Kerry says that people don't understand how the senate works with regards to his votes. I think people understand only to well. many votes are cast to cover one's ass during an election cycle, or cast in a way that makes the senator look good when the defeat or passage of an issue is certain. This bit Kerry in the behind. Why follow your concscience and vote against the IWR? Everyone else is voting for it. Would'nt want to go against the crowd now would we?

    The same thing happens on the Republican side. Dems in the majority and are trying to pass a massive enviromental bill and you have a tough election battle against a pro environmental opponent. Don't worry! We can't defeat it so you just as well vote for it to look pro environment. Will give you cover with the conservatives in your district.

    And of course they all conspire to continue the biggest crime against Americans- the massive confiscation of income through the smoke and mirrors of the US tax code. Far more efficient, more equitable more managable would be a flat tax, national sales tax or a VAT. Eliminate all corproate loopholes and tax breaks.

    Of course this will never happen. Most power in Washington is derived from using the tax system to punish and reward. To fool people into thinking they are getting some kind of wonderous gift with write offs and deductions and refunds.

    And finally, no one should be fooled into thinking the Democrats are not just like republicans when it comes to support of big money. If you look at contributions from donors when PACs were legal you would find substantial money going to both parties from oil companies, pharmaceuticals, banks, insurance companies, "big" tobacco etc. The democrats are in the trial lawyers pockets, the republicans in the doctor's. The insurance company while supporting republicans more, spend millions lobbying dems.

    So I have come to the conclusion that most politicians are self-serving, sniveling scumbags.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Moore
    The consensus at the Jesus Seminar was that Jesus did not perform miracles (i.e. he was an ordinary man). Hypotheses past this majority opinion range from Jesus as a fictional character, Jesus as the conglomeration of many ordinary men, Jesus as an ordinary man who walked the life of an apocolyptic visionary, and many more. This Seminar included many Christians.
    Ummm, excuse me for being dense, but what does this have to do with the original topic of discussion, or even what Tom Duffy was writing about? Or has this turned into a "Lets bash Christians and other dumb religious folk" kind of thread?

  4. #64
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    jrong:


    Sometimes we wander off topic and it either dies on the vine or someone brings it back on topic. Much like real conversations.


    Jim68134:

    I think what most people and probably I don't really understand is the process of getting bills through. Someone comes up with a bill. He takes it to his buddies and see if it will float. If given the okay or support he presents it in the House or Congress.

    Then the bullshit begins. Someone tacks on some stupid amendment that has nothing to do with the intent of the bill. But the only way he will support it is with the amendment attached. Then 50 other fools do the same thing and now the thing is so bogged down with "pork" that the initial bill is costing billions, and everyone's State gets a piece of the pie.

    Then someone else amends the bill to take out part of what you initially wanted and fought for, but they have more people on their side therefore it sticks. Now your bill, which you feel passionate about is watered down "porked up" and even you, who initially presented it, can barely recognise it and wonder why you would even vote for it.

    That is in my opinion why people's voting records are suspect. Sometimes you can't, in good faith, support all the bullshit attached to the bill, that you have to vote against the initial good idea that was presented.

    I don't think these people start out as the crooks that they are, they just slowly become that way. Also they are mostly lawyers. A lawyer is a person who fights for the person that pays them. Makes perfect sense. The trick is don't vote for lawyers.



    Michael McBlane
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  5. #65

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    I think one thing that really throws alot of people off in discussing politics is that they assume we are a Democracy. We aren't and were never intended to be. We are a Republic. As in "And to the Republic for which it stands....".

  6. #66
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    To a poor immigrant, please define the difference.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  7. #67

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    Republic: A state in which the sovereign power resides in the whole body of the people, and is exercised by representatives elected by them; a commonwealth.

    Democracy: Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained and directly exercised by the people.

  8. #68

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    "Humpty Dumpty was pushed."

    The slanderous allegation that Humpty Dumpty was pushed and the unstated suggestion that the parties responsible for said pushing of Humpty Dumpty (which has never been proven for a fact) is a blantant lie. Any furthur spreading of such lies against this administration and its duely appointed agents will be considered to be a direct attack upon this administration and all that it stands for.

  9. #69

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    Ok Michael,

    Most lawyers are self-serving, sniveling scumbags. (Just not the ones that work for me!)
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  10. #70

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    I don't know why its such a revelation that our founding fathers did not trust democracy, and patterned our initial gov't after the Roman Republic model. They were after all members of landed aristocracy or wealthy merchants ( a combination aristocracy/plutocracy). They did not trust women, blacks & large percentage of white males to vote the way they thought we should vote. Only over time have we evolved towards a democracy (2000 election good indication that we aren't there yet). There have been very few true democracies throughout history ( Swiss Cantons). Does Rush Lindberger & the radical right want a return to those good old days of the Roman/US Republic, I suspect so. Out of fear, is the majority willing to allow this to happen, I suspect so (especially since over 40% of the population think they are at or near the top 1% in wealth - talk about stupidity).
    van Huyck Photo
    "Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"



 

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