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  1. #31
    bjorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Gebhardt
    So a gallery owner should only display works that are non-controversial, or that they are willing to fight for? So should I assume that violence against gun stores should be tolerated in your world, because they are only there to make a buck, and some people disagree with their product?
    Nowhere did I say that violence against anyone should be encouraged or tolerated. But I do indeed think that if either Guy Colwell or Lori Haigh really felt strongly about their art they'd stand up for it, rather than trying to pretend that it's not political. Yes, they should be willing to fight for their art, or they are posers. Political art challenges ideas and takes personal risks. Political posing pretends to take on issues merely for low-risk personal gain. Posers prefer a whiffle-ball existence, where "issues" are remote and distant and no one ever gets hurt by bad publicity, least of all if it brings in some attention and sales.

    Where is the "knuckle-dragging neanderthal" in this? What's his statement? Where are the cops? How do we know he didn't argue with this woman before? Perhaps there is money involved? Maybe he just thinks Guy Colwell's drawing style sucks? Maybe he's one of the people who left angry messages calling Haigh a coward for moving the painting to the back of the gallery? Colwell is hardly a stranger to the cheaply sensational. Capobianco Gallery is now closed because neither Colwell or Lori Haigh are willing to stand up for their supposed convictions. This isn't what she had planned — isn't it all wine and cheese and 85% off the top? What's the point of displaying controversial works when people get all worked up about them and don't even buy anything? How much does a security guard cost, when you're already being threatened? How about a proper door?

    This is not blaming the victim. Though apparently, in these denials, she feels she is somehow avoiding blame. Placing such an image on the street is a sort of violence, perpetuated against the public — quite different from a woman wearing a skirt and somehow "attracting" a rapist. For Lori Haigh to be anything but a dilletante, she much have been aware of this — unless she really does have the delusion that political art should only raise high prices, not high stakes.

    As for gun stores, in "my world" one can protest their presence without having to be violent. To do otherwise would not only be self-contradictory, it would probably be tactically unwise.

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
    KB • PhotoRant • PhotoPermit • APUG flickr Robot

  2. #32
    mobtown_4x5's Avatar
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    The motives behind such artwork may not be entirely altruistic, nor it's prominent display. Still, intentional or no, a higher purpose is served.
    However, to expect the absorption of these events into the national consciousness and the subtle role such confrontational expression plays in what is (ultimately) a healing process to not to be beyond the immediate comprehension of the combatants is naivete. (The tiny cognitive abilities of our charming public aside.)
    The business about the "un-american types" and the "she was asking for it" is simply too moronic to justify a response.

  3. #33
    L Gebhardt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke
    As for gun stores, in "my world" one can protest their presence without having to be violent.
    My point exactly. So why should a gallery have to accept violence? Even if her motives are profit, there is no excuse for violence. So why attempt to justify it, or do anything other than condemn it?

    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke
    To do otherwise would not only be self-contradictory, it would probably be tactically unwise.
    I choose the analogy for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke
    Placing such an image on the street is a sort of violence, perpetuated against the public
    I don't see it as violence. If it were violent, than anything that I disagree with I could consider an assault. Maybe I need to call the police on some of the newspaper and magazine publishers - I certainly found the images disturbing. Or some of the posts in this thread ;-)

  4. #34
    bjorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Gebhardt
    ...why should a gallery have to accept violence?
    I don't think anyone posting here has said that they should. Several seem quick to accuse, however.

    Just the same, I do go along with the klansman-robes-in-Compton analogy in terms of sympathy to Haigh and Colwell. Haigh's denial of political basis is like the rhetorical klansman claiming, after his beating, that he was only wearing the costume because he liked pointy hats, especially in that color. It actually has nothing to do with whether I agree or do not approve with the "statement" of this artwork (which I actually believe is nothing but "look at me!"). The events in Iraq are obviously loathesome and frankly I think the worst conspiratorial theories about government complicity in these crimes are mostly correct. This is a real stain on the supposed heritage of American Principles we like to wave in one another's faces. Capitalizing on it as a profitable source of cheap entertainment is another.

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
    KB • PhotoRant • PhotoPermit • APUG flickr Robot

  5. #35
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    What amazes me the most in following this thread is how quickly and confidently so many individuals are able to enter and map the psyche of the artist and the gallery owner. I had no idea that, besides so many talented photographers, APUG also plays host to many gifted psychologists, for whom the complexities of the human mind pose not the slightest problem. And all this from a few paragraphs of a news story! And apparently no one has seen the work in question, nor sat down and spoken to the two protagonists, and yet they are able to dissect every bit of thought and motivation behind the events down to the most subtle nuance of human consciousness. Remarkable!

    I need to learn the address for this wonderful correspondence course immediately. Oh, and does the cost include a ready-to-frame diploma?

    Joe
    Latent Images Plastic Toy Cameras

    "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive" - Howard Thurman

  6. #36
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblebeast
    I need to learn the address for this wonderful correspondence course immediately. Oh, and does the cost include a ready-to-frame diploma?

    Joe
    There is no need for courses or even correspondence. It is the school of the self anointed administered by that great self anointer John Ashcroft without the benefit of a single tax dollar. No diploma either, but you do get cool x-ray glasses.

    *

  7. #37
    bjorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblebeast
    And apparently no one has seen the work in question...
    The work in question was shown in the local papers.

    Guy Colwell's previous works can be found in many comic book stores. Go in the back where it's marked "Adult over 18" and ask around. His publisher was Rip Off Press.
    Last edited by bjorke; 06-02-2004 at 10:09 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: more details.

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
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  8. #38
    Aggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblebeast
    What amazes me the most in following this thread is how quickly and confidently so many individuals are able to enter and map the psyche of the artist and the gallery owner. I had no idea that, besides so many talented photographers, APUG also plays host to many gifted psychologists, for whom the complexities of the human mind pose not the slightest problem. And all this from a few paragraphs of a news story! And apparently no one has seen the work in question, nor sat down and spoken to the two protagonists, and yet they are able to dissect every bit of thought and motivation behind the events down to the most subtle nuance of human consciousness. Remarkable!



    I need to learn the address for this wonderful correspondence course immediately. Oh, and does the cost include a ready-to-frame diploma?



    Joe


    Comes after hours of labor, and a life time of rearing small children to take responsibility for their actions.



    As for Ashcroft, I have said many times in other threads he is a a$$hole. He should have repeated enemas administered with someones steel toed work boots. Does that make me part of the Ashcroft conspiracy as it seems to be here? Hell no. I have an opinion of my own. To say that I am part of Ashcroft is doing exactly like it was stated about getting into someone elses psyche.



    How many of you MEN have wives, sisters, or mothers? I bet you have at least one of those mentioned. What happens when you do something you know will upset (piss them off) them? What do you do? Do you hide and blame someone else? or do you take responsibility for your actions. There is a third option. Or do you have responsibility foisted back at you by said female?



    As for the Gallery owner, she must have had a few classes in art history. There would have been references about historical problems with an image some may not like. She also resides in San Francisco area. There are some areas in town you just do not go into, ie the Tenderloin. If she had her gallery in the Castro section, it would have been applauded. It just happened to be in the one small enclave that is conservative. As for the other a$$hole that did punch her, the taxpayers can save a bundle. Just put me in the back with him and my instructions for vasectomies and my dull spoon.



    As for knowing she would get *A* reaction yes she should have. Now what kind of reaction you would have to take the variables into account. I for one did not say *WHAT* reaction she should have expected. Given the 2 weeks prior to the event that she was getting negative feedback, that would in my small illiterate pea brain of incomprehensibility have told me that something was wrong. WOMEN do know the dangers of being accosted by a man. I am NOT by saying this excusing what happened. Walk a few days in a womans shoes and tell me what you think of that (that for the MEN of this thread.) Notice I am the only female that dares to speak up. Why? Because I learned a long time ago to not take the crap that is fed to me by SOME men. I get tired of the patronizing pats on the head, and the attitude that the male is all knowing. As for condescending, that comes with the statements of being unable to understand. The putting it into a kindergarten text did not work, it was still over the heads of many here. Maybe a few "SEE spot run." should have been added. If dissention is NOT what you are after, then do not start threads where someone is not going to agree with you. Is that not what this is really about? Someone did not agree with what was happening. Yet we here in this thread are doing likewise. We are verbally attacking and belittling others. What does that teach children? that adults are little better than those who did the attack in real life. What do you teach your children? Do you teach them to take responsibility if they do something wrong? What do you teach your sons, brothers, or just other younger acquaintances about dealing with women? Pass a bad mood off as that time of the month? Guess what guys I am this way 24/7/365.



    As for being sophisticated? Hell no I never want to be that. The term came about in the middle ages. It was the term used when a brewer of beer added sugar to the process to speed up the fermentation. It was punishable by death. Beer was thought of as liquid bread and a staple of life. In other words sophistication is the adulteration of the pure form. I leave that up to those who deem themselves so superior to be sophisticated. That is not claiming I am superior by saying that. I know full well I will be *VERBALLY ATTACKED* for saying as I have. I am use to it. I get it all the time being a female. It is either that or we are supposed to hide in the corners and pretend we have no opinion. We are to defer to the all knowing knowledgable male who is closest relation to us.



    I applaud the men who here have stood up to voice an opinion that the woman did indeed have a brain. She was not some bit of fluff that had no clue. that was a movie, not real life. It still doesn't make what happened right. If you walk with blinders on, you will get run over or bump into something and possibly get hurt. I do not as another female expect she was walking around in a rose colored haze with blinders on. The world is not a pristine pastoral picture. Reality sucks. As for the aftermath she now has free at taxpayer expense a heightened patrol of North Beaches finest.

    There are times a female does get attacked that she did not have warning of. I might pose the question at this point. Who was it that did the attack? Was it not a male? Ask the woman who many years ago was raped by one of the Kennedy's in Florida what she has to say about liberal justice. The crap that happens to women goes across all political boundaries. No one is excused.

  9. #39

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    AGGIE,

    Might be time to get the meds refilled maybe? Only someone filled with resentment and anger toward the opposite gender could possibly understand your rant.
    AND, I think you managed to offend the other women here by declaring yourself the only female to speak up, and taking it upon yourself to carry the flag for them. Are you so sure they want you as their representative?
    Oh. I'm so sorry, you probably have a degree in Psychology and you know that's what they want.
    One quick question though... how does what you say about *MEN* make you any different than those *MEN* you would so gladly castrate?
    Do not question what you have not done, question what you will not try.

  10. #40
    Eric Rose's Avatar
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    This is all very tiresome and much to personal in nature to be of any redeeming benefit to the members of this forum. Please people, take your sand back to your own boxes and settle down.
    www.ericrose.com
    yourbaddog.com

    "civility is not a sign of weakness" JFK

    "The Dude abides" - the Dude

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