Perhaps we should open a Troglodyte topic, this would be a perfect "seed".
Originally Posted by noseoil
Really interesting . Do I sense some preoccupation with sex? Of course ... nothing is about morality, "the right thing to do", greed, avarice, Machiavellian politics, domination, the lust for power ... only sex. Spoken like a true Troglodyte!
Equally interesting is the idea that "War is Good". Interesting - although clearly "beef by product."
I will suggest that technologically, more, FAR MORE, was accomplished as a result of Space Exploration Programs, than by ALL the wars that ever took place. And - "War is a good way to reduce the excess population"? How was it expressed by Nazi Germany (and I doubt I'll spell it correctly) - "Lebensraum"?
What are THEY going to do for us?? One question - why the hell SHOULD they do anything for us? Given the tone of your message, one question is unavoidable: "What's in it for them?"
And if you hold a so-called "Liberal Opinion" - you are victims of a "mental disorder"??? Crazy"??? Well - maybe ... Who once said that "All artists are crazy - It is a prerequisite to becoming an artist"
Given the actions of the so-called "sane" people running this government - this is a no-brainer choice - I'll choose Liberalism - and "crazy" ( I really want to be thought of as "Balanced") over pseudo-sanity.
Replied to in a moment of weakness.
Ed Sukach, FFP.
Thanks Ed, someone needs to add balance here. I'm glad we can agree on this subject.
I promised myself I wasn't going to continue reading this thread because it was devolving into the usual s**t, but I feel compelled to add a few points of clarification to the "discussion."
Human nature keeps getting mentioned. There is nothing "natural" about human nature. Once one gets past pure animal instinct, human behavior is based upon learning and social conditioning. See the works of Camus and Sartre for a more in depth treatment of the subject. (Oh! I forgot they were French - never mind...)
Someone dusted off the old saw about returning Vietnam Vets being spat upon by "liberals" or, I assume, members of the Anti-war community. This never happened. A sociologist (Thomas Beamish) and an author (Jerry Lembcke - The Spitting Image) both investigated the claim seperately and could find no such incident. In fact, in the only incident they could find where a Vietnam Vet was maltreated by anyone, the perpetrators were members of the VFW. It's time this myth was put to bed.
And the old, "That's just the way things have always been, accept it"-type of argument carries no water. We are humans, dammit! Capable of rising above anything! If we had reconciled ourselves to the way things have always been, we'd all be sitting around in the dark after sunset (and I don't mean the darkroom) because, "It's always gotten dark at night, and there is nothing you can do about it. Just accept it." The torch, the candle, the lantern, the electric light would never have been invented. It's the choices we make, not the circumstances we find ourselves in, that define us - as individuals and as a species.
And before anyone hoists the label of "Liberal" upon my shoulders like it is an insult of the worst sort, I preemptively shrug it off. The only label I wear is "human being," and even that one is difficult to bear at times - it is humbling to reconcile myself to the fact that I belong to the same species that not only invented the Gas-Powered Leaf Blower, but will fight angrily for its right to use it.
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"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive" - Howard Thurman
I will suggest that technologically, more, FAR MORE, was accomplished as a result of Space Exploration Programs, than by ALL the wars that ever took place
I would suggest that the "space race" was "war". Personally,I don't think that there is any doubt that most of mankinds technological advances were a result of a "race" for better and more deadly weaponry. I believe that the space race was just that. A way to understand and harness "space" to our own advantage.
Since this original thread started with the painting depicting the prison abuse. So essentially it all stated with the "concept" that the photos of the abuse were "unAmerican" or not what we want America to stand for, I would like to post a hypothetical question.
Within the context of the photos that were made public, the leash, the pile of nude bodies, the hooded figure on the box with fake wires attached, and the silly woman pointing at the nude male. With just this type and only this type of "mental coercion" would you be in favor of it in the following scenario.
If because of the information gained by this interrogation technique, your son/daughter would be alive and return home safely from Iraq, would you condone it. Without the information gained, they would be killed. Would you condone it.
Yes or no.
Yes use this treatment, my son/daughter returns home.
No, don't use this treatment, they come home in a box.
Just think about this and only this situation, in this hypothetical and what would you answer. Please don't cloud the issue with things like " yes but we didn't get information" or "these techniques don't work". Just stick to the hypothetical.
Just a mental exercise.
I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.
Are you saying the ends justifies the means? Well at least as long as an American is doing it? This is not meant to be an anti-American dig so don't even go there boys and girls.
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Conservatives' penchant for trying to re-write history is comparable to Orwell's 1984 , very useful for controlling people's thoughts. As a veteran of Vietnam era ( luckily, stationed in Korea) I can remember some of the hatred expressed toward the returning veterans; but it was from the Right. They were accused of losing the war because they were on drugs. It was also the Right that initially opposed the Vietnam War Memorial.
This is a chickenhawk administration that is perfectly willing to send the sons & daughters of the middle & lower class to die for protection of their friends oil interests.
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"Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"
Are you saying the ends justifies the means?
I'm not saying anything. It's a hypothetical question.
Throughout military history, captured enemies were pumped for information that would save the lives of the army doing the capturing.
Some were physically tortured and others had their minds "played with".
The hypothetical is just a question,-- in a war, and your son/daughters life would be saved by the information attained, by subjecting prisoners to the treatment shown in the 4 pictures. Would you be in favor or it.
I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.
Blansky, the world isn't that black and white (and I don't mean the pictures). In the context of the question, yes I would trade mental abuse for a life. As a follow up to your question: whould you still choose this option if it meant that 2 captured American soldiers would be tortured and then beheaded as retribution for the mental torture in question 1?
Yes or no.
Yes use this treatment, my son/daughter returns home. Then someone else's son/daughter is tortured and then killed.
No, don't use this treatment, they come home in a box. But others are not killed and tortured.
Given that we don't know the way events will unfold it is a better to wage the war under a set of guidelines layed down by the world at large. By ignoring the Geneva Conventions we are excusing others to do the same.