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  1. #61
    noseoil's Avatar
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    You mean like Daniel Pearl? What was the justification for this beheading?

  2. #62
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    If because of the information gained by this interrogation technique, your son/daughter would be alive and return home safely from Iraq, would you condone it. Without the information gained, they would be killed. Would you condone it.

    Yes or no.

    Yes use this treatment, my son/daughter returns home.
    No, don't use this treatment, they come home in a box.

    Just think about this and only this situation, in this hypothetical and what would you answer. Please don't cloud the issue with things like " yes but we didn't get information" or "these techniques don't work". Just stick to the hypothetical.

    Michael McBlane
    I should play your game?

    Why not play mine:

    *IF* we could eradicate all the sexual abuse of children by standing all the Roman Catholic Priests up against the wall and machine gunning them ... would you be in favor of it?

    Yes or no?

    This is merely hypothetical. so I (note 1) don't want any other answer. Just answer: YES or no?? No explanation, not what if ... JUST yes or no??

    Note 1: *I* --- and no one else matters.

    Is my question any more unfair - or less - than yours?

    THINK - If anything becomes apparent after a study of the histories of war, it is that the side that treats their prisoners most humanely ALWAYS is the most successful. If you know of an exception, I'd like to hear it.

    There is a story of an American OSS Officer who was captured at the end of the war. After the first day of German "questioning" (and the idea was that torture was an acceptable means for saving German lives), the installation where he was being held was ordered to surrender (or something like that) to the conquering Allied Forces.
    The freed Allied officer confronted his "Interrogator" that morning. The first thing his torturer said was, "I know that you are going to kill me - but please don't kill my family".
    The OSS Officer replied, "We aren't going to kill anyone - we are not Nazis."

    A good "read" is "The Winter War", about the "first" Soviet-Finnish war taking place during World War II.

    The Russian commanders had repeatedly warned their troops about the horrible treatment they would endure if captured by the "White Death", as they had come to call the Finns.
    What they found was the polar opposite: The Finns treated the wounded from both sides according to severity; it was not uncommon for a Finnish doctor to treat a Russian prisoner before the Finnish wounded; they provided them with HOT food, a warm place to sleep; there were even accounts of the Finns taking them to Sauna, and furnishing them with Finnish vodka.

    One of the Russians wrote about asking a Finnish Officer about their treatment as prisoners. The officer replied: "Yesterday, you were the enemy - it was our mission and duty to kill you. Today you are prisoners, and no longer enemy - you are simply human beings, and we will treat you as human beings."

    Think of how effective that was - after being "repatriated", they had to return to a frozen hell, starving ... with officers that had very little regard at all for human life ordering them to die.

    Yes ... "Messing with their heads". Think of the effect that had on Russian morale.

    So ... pictures of what was happening in that Iraqi Prison. So what? - does anyone think that the Iraqis themselves did not know? It is not possible to hide injustice like that. How does one "cover up" storming a civilian house, carrying someone away, and denying any knowledge of what happened to them?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  3. #63
    blansky's Avatar
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    Wow, it's amazing that a hypothetical question would cause such an outburst.

    As for the Catholic priests. Just the ones that did it?

    Hypothetically?

    Yes.

    Now I "played" your game, so what is your answer to mine?


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  4. #64
    noblebeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    Wow, it's amazing that a hypothetical question would cause such an outburst.
    Yeah, but they're only hypothetical outburts!
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    "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive" - Howard Thurman

  5. #65

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    Anything that hurts children is the worst crime in the world. So Ed, to play your game, YES!

    I do not see how there can be any similarities between World War II combatants and the kind facing coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq - they do not interrogate - they behead; they do not take prisoners of war - they take civilians; they do not wear uniforms - they wear civilian clothes; they do not fight in the open - they hide in mosques and hospitals, they hide behind children; they do not throw grenades - they act as tourists and then blow themselves up around children.

    It is naive to think that if the coalition forces were to follow in the footsteps of those gentlemen from WWII (and I believe that they do) that the Al-Qaeda forces and sympathisers will stop chaining the dead bodies of coalition soldiers to the back of their pick up trucks and dragging them all over town for all to cheer, that they will stop suicide bombings. WWII and Al-Qaeda - there is no correlation in my view.

  6. #66
    blansky's Avatar
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    Ed wrote:

    THINK - If anything becomes apparent after a study of the histories of war, it is that the side that treats their prisoners most humanely ALWAYS is the most successful. If you know of an exception, I'd like to hear it.

    Without having to think too hard, how about this one.

    World War II --The Soviets/Russians.

    Viet Nam Police action --- the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong



    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  7. #67
    L Gebhardt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noseoil
    You mean like Daniel Pearl? What was the justification for this beheading?
    I believe that was the perceived injustice of Israel and America towards the Palestinians. The root cause of that you could say is religion, or "my God is better than your God". This has been going on for a thousand years or more between Christians, Jews and Muslims.

  8. #68
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    Wow, it's amazing that a hypothetical question would cause such an outburst.

    As for the Catholic priests. Just the ones that did it?

    Hypothetically?

    Yes.

    Michael
    No!! Not "Just the ones who did it." I said ALL!

    After all, it's only hypothetical.

    If you choose to modify the terms of my question, is it all right for me to modify yours?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  9. #69
    noseoil's Avatar
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    LG - My point exactly. Human nature has not and will not change. I stand by my opinion that this will never end. To view it as a "fixable" problem is extremely ignorant.

  10. #70

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    Hypothetical questions must have some basis in reality for them to be put forward - Blansky's question is plausible - i.e. will the practice of interrogating in such a manner depicted by the painting help in keeping alive coalition soldiers. It is likely that intelligence gathered in such a manner would result in preemptive strikes against suicide bombers etc. Similarly the hypothesis concerning increased grotesque beheading as a result of such tactics of interrogation continuing.

    A hypothetical question that results in eliminating ALL catholic priests is just not plausible. It is fantastical! You might as well say that we should kill all moslems for Sept 11. Michael modified your question based on sensible realities - i.e. kill the bad eggs not the good ones.



 

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