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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    You might as well tie a paint brush to a donkey's tale then. If accidental counts, the poor animal will create art eventually.
    I don't think so.

    I also don't think that serendipity is entirely seredipitous (i also hate that word).
    What we do has an origin somewhere. As Kevin mentioned, it may not be a conscious act, but an act (i.e. something that betrays intentionality) it is.


    I'm not sure about the appreciation bit.
    I think what you might do that would be art can be part of you trying to make sense of the world you live in. As such, it's part of a discovery process you alone are involved in.
    No need to share (though us humans can't help oursleves and will anyway), or (more importantly) have others appreciate what we do.
    On the other hand, other people confirming what you think you have discovered may be very usefull to help you go on.
    Other people disagreeing, i.e. not appreciating what you do will too.

  2. #22
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    I don't think so.

    I also don't think that serendipity is entirely seredipitous (i also hate that word).
    What we do has an origin somewhere. As Kevin mentioned, it may not be a conscious act, but an act (i.e. something that betrays intentionality) it is.
    We will never agree on this (and we don't have to), because our definitions of art are different. Since there is no universally agreed definition, we are all allowed to have our own. Here is mine:

    Art is the conscious expression or application of creative human skill and imagination, producing aesthetic work, primarily appreciated for its beauty or emotional power by a group of people.

    Nobody needs to agree with this definition, but to understand my statements about art, it helps to know where I'm coming from. What I don't have time for is people who claim that art cannot be defined, but they are constantly talk about it. How is the rest of the world suppose to know what they are talking about then?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    We will never agree on this (and we don't have to), because our definitions of art are different. Since there is no universally agreed definition, we are all allowed to have our own. Here is mine:

    Art is the conscious expression or application of creative human skill and imagination, producing aesthetic work, primarily appreciated for its beauty or emotional power by a group of people.

    Nobody needs to agree with this definition, but to understand my statements about art, it helps to know where I'm coming from. What I don't have time for is people who claim that art cannot be defined, but they are constantly talk about it. How is the rest of the world suppose to know what they are talking about then?
    Quite right.

    I do indeed not agree with your definition entirely, because i do think that what human beings do that has significance is more than what they do consciously.
    I don't believe that people are rational beings that are capable of doing things entirely consciously. On the contrary: we are mostly irrational beings, and rationality is one of the things we irrationaly like to believe in. The full significance of art, of any human expression, can only be taken in if we allow the 'less conscious' part of ourselves to grasp the irrational, unconscious and undeliberate content of art as well as the reasoned, conscious content.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    ...I do indeed not agree with your definition entirely, because i do think that what human beings do that has significance is more than what they do consciously...
    Then your definition of art (which I'm not aware of) apparently includes significance. I do agree that art can be significant, but significant to whom or what, the artist, others, history? Of course it's significant to the artist, otherwise, he or she would not do it. Significance to others was already declined, consequently, history will not necessarily know about it.

    What's left?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    Then your definition of art (which I'm not aware of) apparently includes significance. I do agree that art can be significant, but significant to whom or what, the artist, others, history? Of course it's significant to the artist, otherwise, he or she would not do it. Significance to others was already declined, consequently, history will not necessarily know about it.

    What's left?
    I assumed that (significance) as a given.
    If not significant, why would it (need to) have a proper name?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    I assumed that (significance) as a given.
    If not significant, why would it (need to) have a proper name?
    There is sufficient significance in the highlighted part my definition:

    Art is the conscious expression or application of creative human skill and imagination, producing aesthetic work, primarily appreciated for its beauty or emotional power by a group of people.

    You argued that an unconsciously created product of significance can be called art as well, and I don't call that art but a lucky incident (serendipity). Since that is different, it has it's own proper name (sorry if you don't like the word, I did not make it up).

    To me, art is limited to conscious efforts.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  7. #27
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
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    Curious if your are excluding something stemming more from the "Subconscious" as well, Ralph?

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    There is sufficient significance in the highlighted part my definition:

    Art is the conscious expression or application of creative human skill and imagination, producing aesthetic work, primarily appreciated for its beauty or emotional power by a group of people.

    You argued that an unconsciously created product of significance can be called art as well, and I don't call that art but a lucky incident (serendipity). Since it is different, it has it's own proper name (sorry if you don't like the word, I did not make it up).

    Is the word 'conscious' the only part where our definitions of art differ?
    I think so, yes.

    You seem to treat conscious and unconscious as two things that can't be involved both at the same time. They always are.

    And as if what we do is always conscious, if it has any signifance. As if we are such perfect beings that only do things deliberately, or else can't be said to do things at all.
    We most certainly are not: most of what we do is largely irrational and unconsciously. Despite us thinking (and we do - which proves the point ) that we are well ordered, deliberate, rational beings.

    And there is, i'm sure, a world of difference between a lucky incident and an unconscious act.
    Though sometimes things do happen all by themselves (or so it seems), what we do is always what we do.
    It is not something that happens all by itself (so not a lucky incident). Even less something we happen upon by accident (so not serendipitous). But part of what we do.
    Last edited by Q.G.; 05-22-2010 at 10:19 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Seplling...

  9. #29
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
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    I believe there is vast difference between subconscious and unconscious.... As EW said, (well, paraphrased anyway - The Daybooks are at home) My work is always miles ahead of what I write about it.

    I've heard it said that our best work is often a manifestation of that which we are unable to express any other way... and I largely agree.

    Shawn

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    I think so, yes.

    You seem to treat conscious and unconscious as two things that can't be involved both at the same time. They always are...
    Looks like we're not that far apart, but more importantly, now I better understand what you mean with 'art'.

    I'm with Shawn on the definitions of conscious, unconscious and subconscious. The first and last happen together all the time. The first and second do not.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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