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  1. #21
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    RTHOMAS:
    About the Second Sunday Camera Show that you asked about: I had been going from Philadelphia (public transport) for about two years and there was a patron on the bus with me who was a regular like me. He had a 50mm El Nikkor for sale for $15 and I said I would like it. We got off the bus and walked to the Firehouse (where the show is held) and as we were walking in I asked to see it. The proprietor told me that that was not permitted so we went out to the parking lot. He followed us and started to give me royal hell and threatened to call the police. NOTE: the patron NEVER received even a modicum of criticism and HE was the person selling the lens. Can anyone infer why? I gulped and went back into the show area and made my purchases as always. I will state now that I bought tons of stuff every show because there is a dealer there (Artie Duren) who is a human example of exemplary humanity. After the show was over I went to the female at the ticket counter and apoligized for anything I might have done despite distinctly hearing her thank the thug who screamed at me. I then left to go back to get the bus to Newark where I would get my train back to Philadelphia. I thought and pondered and decided to write a rather lengthy letter to the show's management and also posted it in the 'Lounge forum' here (I believe Jan 2008 or thereabouts). I received a torrent of hate emails from many of the show's dealers and many, many hate postings from this forum. Oddly, Photo.net respondees were much more understanding and conciliatory. Thinking hard and honestly about this incident I have come to the conclusion that the hate was really because I was such an astute buyer and did not patronize dealers who wished to fleece me (I do not think that either Arnie nor Arite, who are twins by the way, even know HOW to fleece anyone). They were jealous that the Durens got 90% of my business. After that hate spate I decided to never return because I was not prepared for both the hate gauntlet at the door the next time I entered (both management and dealers) and was genuinely afraid of the Wayne police waiting for me to stub my toe and then arrest me. When you are a local proprietor and hold a show at the Wayne, NJ firehouse you have 'clout' and sometimes 'own' the police whom I have no reason adhere to a sense of ethics (that would place me in a neutral position). I could name names, some of whom are familiar to this forum, but I will spare the ignominy. Each morning when I wake up I remember fully, and personally acknowledge to myself that I have hurt no one. I would rather be a victim than be a perpetrator in life. But that assessment is not good enough for some ethically challenged people out there. - David Lyga (david33x@yahoo.com)

  2. #22
    rthomas's Avatar
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    Wow, I too would have stopped going. I've met individuals (not dealers) selling items at camera shows and cut deals right on the spot. That's how I got my first Fuji 645 RF camera. It never occurred to me that anybody would take issue with that.

  3. #23
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    States' rights were a significant sticking point in the founding of the country, and have been defended by various methods, including, unfortunately, civil war.

    Fifty sets of laws = more lawyers; they're very happy with the current arrangement.
    From a Canadian perspective here.

    Different legal responsibilities are given to different jurisdictions. For example, criminal law is a national responsibility, whereas the law about wills and estates is a provincial responsibility.

    It gets really fun when the subject of the law can fit in both sets of responsibilities.

    Most lawyers don't get any joy from the fact that the laws vary from province to province. For example, there is nothing more frustrating than having to tell someone that most likely they will have to seek help from a lawyer 5000 km away, because their parent lived that far away, and that parent's screwed up Will is subject to that jurisdiction's laws.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have variations on the law. Not sure why though.
    "[...] does it mean that a lawyer in one [country] cannot work in another [country] without re-qualifying?"


  5. #25
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    "[...] does it mean that a lawyer in one [country] cannot work in another [country] without re-qualifying?"

    That's a good question and I don't know the answer... yet!

    I will find out.


    EDIT: From what I can find out - England and Wales are treated as a single jurisdiction so I think if you are qualified in one of those countries, you can practise in the other. Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate though.




    Steve.
    Last edited by Steve Smith; 07-23-2010 at 02:02 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #26
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    RTHOMAS:
    About the Second Sunday Camera Show that you asked about: I had been going from Philadelphia (public transport) for about two years and there was a patron on the bus with me who was a regular like me. He had a 50mm El Nikkor for sale for $15 and I said I would like it. We got off the bus and walked to the Firehouse (where the show is held) and as we were walking in I asked to see it. The proprietor told me that that was not permitted so we went out to the parking lot. He followed us and started to give me royal hell and threatened to call the police. NOTE: the patron NEVER received even a modicum of criticism and HE was the person selling the lens. Can anyone infer why? I gulped and went back into the show area and made my purchases as always. I will state now that I bought tons of stuff every show because there is a dealer there (Artie Duren) who is a human example of exemplary humanity. After the show was over I went to the female at the ticket counter and apoligized for anything I might have done despite distinctly hearing her thank the thug who screamed at me. I then left to go back to get the bus to Newark where I would get my train back to Philadelphia. I thought and pondered and decided to write a rather lengthy letter to the show's management and also posted it in the 'Lounge forum' here (I believe Jan 2008 or thereabouts). I received a torrent of hate emails from many of the show's dealers and many, many hate postings from this forum. Oddly, Photo.net respondees were much more understanding and conciliatory. Thinking hard and honestly about this incident I have come to the conclusion that the hate was really because I was such an astute buyer and did not patronize dealers who wished to fleece me (I do not think that either Arnie nor Arite, who are twins by the way, even know HOW to fleece anyone). They were jealous that the Durens got 90% of my business. After that hate spate I decided to never return because I was not prepared for both the hate gauntlet at the door the next time I entered (both management and dealers) and was genuinely afraid of the Wayne police waiting for me to stub my toe and then arrest me. When you are a local proprietor and hold a show at the Wayne, NJ firehouse you have 'clout' and sometimes 'own' the police whom I have no reason adhere to a sense of ethics (that would place me in a neutral position). I could name names, some of whom are familiar to this forum, but I will spare the ignominy. Each morning when I wake up I remember fully, and personally acknowledge to myself that I have hurt no one. I would rather be a victim than be a perpetrator in life. But that assessment is not good enough for some ethically challenged people out there. - David Lyga (david33x@yahoo.com)

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    RTHOMAS:
    About the Second Sunday Camera Show that you asked about: ...
    I think there was enough drama the first time you posted this.

  8. #28
    Worker 11811's Avatar
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    Remember that there is US federal law which protects the citizen's civil rights.

    Title 42 USC § 1983. -- http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc42.pt1.wais &start=26686278&SIZE=2538&TYPE=TEXT

    From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
    [www.gpoaccess.gov]
    [Laws in effect as of January 3, 2007]
    [CITE: 42USC1983]

    [Page 3694-3695]

    TITLE 42--THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE

    CHAPTER 21--CIVIL RIGHTS

    SUBCHAPTER I--GENERALLY


    Sec. 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights

    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation,
    custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia,
    subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or
    other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any
    rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws,
    shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in
    equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any
    action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken
    in such officer's judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be
    granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief
    was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress
    applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered
    to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

    (R.S. Sec. 1979; Pub. L. 96-170, Sec. 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284;
    Pub. L. 104-317, title III, Sec. 309(c), Oct. 19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.)

    Codification

    R.S. Sec. 1979 derived from act Apr. 20, 1871, ch. 22, Sec. 1, 17
    Stat. 13.
    Section was formerly classified to section 43 of Title 8, Aliens and
    Nationality.


    Amendments

    1996--Pub. L. 104-317 inserted before period at end of first
    sentence ``, except that in any action brought against a judicial
    officer for an act or omission taken in such officer's judicial
    capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory
    decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable''.
    1979--Pub. L. 96-170 inserted ``or the District of Columbia'' after
    ``Territory'', and provisions relating to Acts of Congress applicable
    solely to the District of Columbia.


    Effective Date of 1979 Amendment

    Amendment by Pub. L. 96-170 applicable with respect to any
    deprivation of rights, privileges, or immunities

    [[Page 3695]]

    secured by the Constitution and laws occurring after Dec. 29, 1979, see
    section 3 of Pub. L. 96-170, set out as a note under section 1343 of
    Title 28, Judiciary and Judicial Procedure.
    This makes it a civil action for anybody to violate a persons civil rights guaranteed under the constitution.
    This law was made back in the post-Civil War days to prevent government officials from discriminating against newly-freed Black people. Its purpose was to make it so that people didn't have to take their case all the way to the Supreme Court to have their problems redressed. They could simply file suit in Federal court.

    So, if a cop harasses you for taking pictures, he is technically in violation of 42 USC-1983. He an his supervisors, subordinates or peers who did not act to stop him from proceeding with violating your rights can also be sued.

    There are also companion laws in almost every state which make it a civil action when somebody violates your civil rights. And, in many cases, there is no "color of law" provision as there is in the Federal statute. This means that ANYBODY who violates your civil rights, regardless of whether they are a government official or not can be sued for civil rights violations.

    Plus, if there are unlawful arrest issues involved, you have another avenue of legal defense.

    So... If somebody calls the cops on you without good reason and this results in you being harassed and your civil rights are violated in an important way, both the cop and the person who called the cops on you could end up getting sued.

    Any good cop should know this. They receive training in this.

    I'm not saying that this doesn't get messy, nor do I mean to imply that it is quick and easy but there ARE laws which govern and protect our civil rights and they HAVE been used and people have won judgments because of it.
    Randy S.

    In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

    -----

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/randystankey/

  9. #29
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Just out of personal interest, how do these civil rights transfer to visitors to the US? Do they have equal rights to residents or is there a different set of laws?


    Steve.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    Just out of personal interest, how do these civil rights transfer to visitors to the US? Do they have equal rights to residents or is there a different set of laws?


    Steve.
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation,
    custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia,
    subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or
    other person within the jurisdiction
    thereof [etc.]
    It's all there...

    Does an Englishman in England enjoy more protection by law than a Welshmen in England?

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