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  1. #11
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt miller
    :rolleyes: Can you say "paranoid"?

    I, for one, embrace the increase in security. This is a time of war. I believe that we will be attacked again, within the US borders. dr bob's story shows that it works. Sure, there's no way they're going to stop everyone; but if just one life is saved, is it not worth it?



    Nothing?
    Can you say political gain via fearmongering?

    I embrace security as well, but not at the expense of freedom.

    Your argument that by saving one life the restrictions have been paid for. Let's extrapolate to an extreme...
    We can make most everyone safe by locking the country down, collecting all the guns and strongly moderating the behaviour of the public. Result: many more are in jail, but far far fewer attacks and deaths. Is it worth it?-- of course not.

    None of us want to be extreme, so where do we draw the line? Who draws the line? We certainly wish to save more than one life don't we?

    I see this as being a very slippery slop. The great irony is I have very serious doubts that it offers any real security.

    Colour me a ranting idiot, but I have always thought what made this country great is its adherence to the ideal that freedom, democracy, equality and justice were the principles we held highest.


    Oh, never mind... I think I'll move to the Peoples Republic of Canada.

    *

  2. #12

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    Definitely not a ranting idiot...

    If someone questions me on why I'm photographing what I am, I'll gladly engage them in polite conversation and even, gasp, show them my ID. I don't feel that this is an attack on my freedoms. When/if I feel that any freedom is lost, which I'm confident won't happen, then I may agree with you.

    Loss of freedom, no; small inconvenience, yes.
    Last edited by matt miller; 08-26-2004 at 09:15 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: spelling error

  3. #13
    c6h6o3's Avatar
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    Nothing. Actually, less than nothing, since we are less safe now than we were before our congenial frat boy was appointed President.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    Can you say political gain via fearmongering?

    None of us want to be extreme, so where do we draw the line? Who draws the line? We certainly wish to save more than one life don't we?
    When legislation like the 'patriot act', shrewdly and cynically named so that those who oppose it will appear 'unpatriotic', is perpetuated, I, for one, think we are already sliding down the slope......and sharply to the right at that!
    John Voss

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  5. #15

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    Along these lines...

    Living in Windsor, Ontario (right across the river from Detroit Michigan) I hear both American and Canadian sides to the current issues...

    Keep them scared and keep them buying seems more the order of the day.

    A slippery slope indeed.

    joe

  6. #16
    blansky's Avatar
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    Those who fear for our loss of freedoms must try to remember that this country's politics runs on a pendulum.

    For a while, too far right, then for a while too far left.

    During a time of war this country and others always lock down some freedoms. The price you pay for security. The people we are fighting have declared that they are looking for soft targets. That means you and I.

    In a couple of years when this minor glitch in our freedoms is lifted, we will probably swing so far left that, then we'll be bitching about that.

    Just an opinion.


    Michael McBlane
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr bob
    When authorities stopped them, they attempted to hide the camera stating they were returning from the beach where they were making pictures.
    Reuters didn't have this "hiding the camera" part of the story. Care to elaborate with sources? (Gee, if a squad car pulled me over, would I continue to hold up a metal object?)
    Quote Originally Posted by dr bob
    It has turned out that one of the pair was on FBI’s terrorist list and the confiscated camera (film?) showed details of bridge construction but no beach images.
    Take a look at the developing pattern (reported over and again, on PhotoPermit). The greatest crime one can commit these days without being charged directly is PWMEPhotographing While Middle Eastern.
    This "terrorist" is a 57-year-old man travelling with his family. He is indeed on a "Watch list" but that doesn't make him a terrorist, it means that he was part of a group that has been alleged -- not shown, not indictable, but alleged -- to have financial ties to Hamas.

    They were spotted by an off-duty officer who reported seeing a passenger videotaping the five-mile-long bridge from a car window. Jeez, tourists photographing a five-mile-long bridge -- shocking! No video of the beach? Not everyone carries their camera everywhere, least of all to the ocean water and sand. Occam's Razor? Why, that's old-fashioned legal junk. We're out to find terrorists, and we know what they look like.

    My prediction: this family will be torn to pieces and detained indefinitely, only to have one member indicted on some non-terror-related charge like "being sneaky when arrested" or some INS paperwork infraction. In the meantime the Baltimore cops will have a media parade, and the Chicago US Attorney's Office (Chicago???? yes) will use their new material witness warrant as a lockpick to quietly open files on everyone this we-know-he's-really-a-terrorist-cuz-all-those-ay-rabs-wanna-kill-us ever phoned, mailed, or bought groceries from over the past five years, using his "possible ties to foreign terrorist organizations" as a pretext to bypass all legal restrictions and oversight via the PATRIOT act. This has already been done, and will continue to be done.
    Last edited by bjorke; 08-26-2004 at 12:11 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: minor typo

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  8. #18
    blansky's Avatar
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    Rightly or wrongly, I think that a part of the message is that we want those planning things, to think that the ease at which 9/11 happened, won't happen again.

    The ridiculous screening and body searches at airports of little blond boys and 80 year old women is a testament to this. They want the would be terrorists to see that everyone is being watched. Of course this is also done so that they can pull in every Arab looking person and not have discrimination charges thrown at them.

    Whether of not this is effective or not is debatable but it seems like a part of the strategy.

    Personally, at this time, I don't really mind and I won't be screaming the sky is falling any time soon. My wife flies once a week and if this keeps her safe, it's fine with me.

    As I said, in a while the neocons will be voted out and things will slowly get back to normal, whatever that is.


    Michael McBlane
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  9. #19
    dr bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke
    My prediction: this family will be torn to pieces and detained indefinitely, only to have one member indicted on some non-terror-related charge like "being sneaky when arrested" or some INS paperwork infraction. In the meantime the Baltimore cops will have a media parade, and the Chicago US Attorney's Office (Chicago???? yes) will use their new material witness warrant as a lockpick to quietly open files on everyone this we-know-he's-really-a-terrorist-cuz-all-those-ay-rabs-wanna-kill-us ever phoned, mailed, or bought groceries from over the past five years, using his "possible ties to foreign terrorist organizations" as a pretext to bypass all legal restrictions and oversight via the PATRIOT act. This has already been done, and will continue to be done.

    I remember after 911 the Gov’rnent was highly criticized by left and right for NOT responding to “we-know-he's-really-a-terrorist-cuz-all-those-ay-rabs-wanna-kill-us” middle eastern stereotypes who trained as airline pilots and generally engaged in “being sneaky” in public. O. K. guys, instead of criticizing present policy, tell us what action SHOULD be taken in light of current events?
    I love the smell of fixer in the morning. It smells like...creativity!
    Truly, dr bob.

  10. #20
    Aggie's Avatar
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    IS IT TIME YET?

    To move this thread to a political discussion arena?

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